How Should We Combat Modern Racism?

Great Debates
41

I understand what Magellan is saying; it’s a common enough argument.

Part of the reasoning here with respect to the U.S. is that racism has decreased over time. However, that reduction could be the result of the aggressively anti-racist policies undertaken in the 60s and 70s. Nor has it completely dissipated, as has been made clear by the recent resurgence.

Also, what makes you think racism in Brazil has decreased? There are death squads that hunt down poor black kids in the streets.

Anyway, all of this is somewhat of a tangent. Can we focus on either of the two questions in the OP?

42

The question was not addressed to you, but… ok. Now I have to ask you this…if a caucasian person projects an image of thuggery or sullenness, or dresses and behaves in ways that make it clear that they want nothing to do with mainstream society. What do you call them?

Will they will be perceived as threats or ousiders and will be much more likely to come in for discrimination and/or avoidance and exclusion that the mainstream society which they seem so contemptuous of?

What do you call caucasian thugs, gangsters and rap star wannabes?

43

Sorry, I thought you were responding to my comment that referred to you in post #22.

With regard to the caucasion types you mention, I think they generally get called white trash. Or allusions are made to Jerry Springer or trailer parks.

And yes, they are very much viewed as threats and outsiders and as people to be avoided.

But that’s a different subject. This thread is about how to combat racism, and these types of people are not the victims of racism.

44
  1. a) Turf racial hate crime laws
    b) Start/continue racial profiling. - Kearsen

BTW…

Kearsen, this statement is contradicted by the rest of your post.

45

I’m in too remote a part of the world to really jump into this fray, but I don’t think Mr Obama should have any discourse at all, and I think the notion that there is some sort of national discourse which can be changed through some sort of centralized effort is sort of silly and pollyannish.

It seems to me there are obvious average differences among races, both culturally and genetically. So what? What is it about a race classification that has any more meaning for defining a given individual or their potential than, say, gender?

We should stop pretending all groups are the same and stop pretending that grouping people has much value.

It’s unlikely that we will do that, but that is what we should do.

It is a personal observation of mine that the determination to classify citizens along race-based cohorts is at least as much driven by minorities who feel underrepresented in society as it is by middle class whites who feel put upon.

But you can’t have it both ways: if you want to plead that your group is underrepresented because of unfair social policies or racism, you must be willing to show that your group will perform on par if given equal opportunity. To date that has not been the case, particularly along black-white lines, either in the United States or any other country.

46

To answer the O.P.its pretty obvious that those who are so vehemently opposing Obama apart from some psychotic belief that America is going to become some sort of gigantic workers collective are doing so because of racism and probably from no other reason then racism.

But that said,the question raised"how do we deal with racism etc."?

A good start would be not to make racist assumptions in the first place.
i.e that only Whiteys can be, and are racists and that any racist statements made about Whitey are in fact nothing more then evenly balanced liberal,racially tolerant views.

They’re not.

If you have a knee jerk reaction on any subject for debate before you’ve heard the evidence based on "Oh this involves Whites and African Americans/Asians whatever then like it or not you are a racist.

If you are an apologist for the indefencible because the indefenceible has been committed by a member of your ethnic group then you are a racist.

If you use the indefencible actions of other ethnic groups as a let off for the indefencible actions of a member of your own E.G. then you are a racist.

If you use historical actions against your ethnic group to justify the above then you’re a racist.

It doesn’t matter if your black,white, brown or sky blue green,a racist is a racist is a racist .
But unfortunately there are those who because they’re not Caucasian rationalise to themselves that they themselves are not racist when they are just as bad as any White supremicist.

It weakens any attempts to engender genuine racial equality in the workplace,politics or everyday life when White Nazis can point the finger at their accusers and say “hey why’re you pointing us out when they’re just as bad?”

There should be more people practicing what they preach.

47

Calling someone a racial slur because they are a jerk/criminal/whatever is to infuse racism where racism need not be infused. It’s interesting that in this quote, you (and the majority of posters in this thread), focus your efforts on those who are the target of racism and not the racist themselves when talking about answers to combat racism.

A criminal is a criminal. A racist is a racist. I offer defense to neither.

48

Thank you very much for this. This is the gist of what I was trying to get to in a roundabout sort of way.

The point is that an asshole is an asshole, a thug is a thug, a thief is a thief and a racist is a racist. Race nor creed have anything to do with it. If someone uses that opportunity to use the “N” word, or any other slur in conjunction with the description, then that person would benefit greatly from a race relations course. And they should not continue to kid themselves that they are not part of the problem, because they are indeed racist. No matter how well-intentioned they think they are.

49

The point you were getting at was clear, it’s the same point that was made by The Onion four years ago. Of course, race baiting has really become an impressively complex national sport since that article was published.

Now where were we? Oh yes, sharing ideas on disbanding the NAACP and possibly other African-American civil rights groups that contribute to racism…

50

Because, of course, racism only originated in 1909 with the founding of the NAACP and anti-Jewish bigotry only began in 1913, with the founding of the Anti-Defamation League.

51

Of course you did. Starving Artist mentions bad fashion choices, drug dealing, shootings, gangsta rap, and high crime rates in minority-dominated areas. You skipped over everything but the part about fashion.

Yes, you did. You do it again here -

So, either the different group to which you referred is “financially disadvantafged” or they aren’t. If they aren’t, then your claims that they are are false. If they are, please provide a cite that they are.

I guess all that is necessary to point out about this horseshit is that accusations of racism against anyone you don’t like aren’t going to do anything to combat modern racism.

It poisons the debate, which no doubt was your intent.

(See? You’re not the only mind-reader on the SDMB.)

Regards,
Shodan

52

I can’t speak for others, but I think you are missing the point here…Some of these groups helped back in the day, but if we want to get past racism, we need to disband groups that are defined by race. It is like training wheels on a bike…they help at the beginning, but if you never take them off, you will never really learn how to ride a bike.

53

No. I accepted the stuff that was actually self-destructive, like lionizing criminals. I merely pointed out that he actually made a bigger deal of the fashion stuff that was really irrelevant to the discussion, and noted that he ignored similar stuff from other non-black populations.

Quit making up stuff that is contradicted by what I actually posted.

Go look at the poverty and crime statistics for the country. There is plenty of both among various white groups including the ones that can be identified by the fashions I noted. I did not say that everyone who embraced those fashions was disadvahntaged–that is you deliberately disrtorting my words.

Well, it is clearly YOUR intent–as always.

54

I am, touched by your naivete, but the idea that if we stop pointing out racial discrimination, it will somehow disapper from the land is without merit, as far as I can see. I have encountered far too many racists who have never encountered any actual NGO or governmental agency opposing racism. The hatred is out there and refusing to talk about it simply gives more strength to those who want to continue it, since they won’t have to answer for their actions or words.

55

I asked for a cite. In return, I get accused of racism and your usual horseshit accusations of bad faith.

Let’s see which white groups can be identified by their fashions, and how those groups are financially disadvantafged or disadvahntaged or however you decide to spell it next time. Then you can explain why you can identify white groups by their fashions, but not black ones.

Or else you can throw out the usual insults and then retreat behind your moderator status or run away.

Regards,
Shodan

56

We should combat racism by not cheapening the sting of its accusation by tossing them at everyone with whom we disagree politically.

57

You have not been accused of racism by me. I am not sure why you are making that up.

On the other hand, I only pointed out that you are engaging in bad faith argumentation when you first accused me of that. You have twisted my actual statements to claim I said something I have not said. This, of course, is a standard feature of your posting, to draw an incorrect conclusion from an argument and then simply repeat the same claim over and over, even when it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. (I have not bothered to demonstrate it in this thread, as I see that as a waste of time.) I have no idea whether your errors of conclusion are based on a lack of ability or in malice and I am not going to bother guessing which is the cause. If you insist on making all discussions personal, it is extremely hypocritical of you to complain when others respond in kind.

58

The point is that the struggle against racism, though it has been imposed upon blacks and is responsible for the fact that black people have been disadvantaged socially and economically for centuries in this country, is being made more difficult due to the large number of blacks who are projecting a negative and threatening image to the rest of society.

It is quite understandable that some black people may be loathe to adopt qualities that they associate with whites (I’ve known more than one black person who’s come in for criticism from their own for “acting white”), but wasn’t Martin Luther King’s goal to reach a time in this country when blacks were treated no differently than anyone else? And who was this anyone else that he wanted blacks to be treated the same as? The answer, obviously, is the nation’s white population.

So if the goal of the elimination of racism is that we should all treat each other equally and not make distinctions based on race, how is not a stumbling block to that for a sizable number of the minority population to be deliberately adopting lifestyle choices in the manner of dress, speech and criminal behavior that sets it at odds with the white or majority population.

There is a reason for the “When in Rome do as the Romans do” adage. People are better accepted and better treated when they behave as everyone else does. So if blacks want to live in a country where they are able to buy houses and find jobs and date or marry whoever they want – in effect, being treated no differently than anyone else – doesn’t it make sense then that they live the same as everyone else? How can you set yourself apart from everyone else by deliberately adopting behavior that they find threatening or at the very least off-putting, and then expect them to welcome you with open arms and treat you no differently than anyone else?

I remember a conversation I had back in the early nineties with a Hispanic kid who worked at the same place I did. He was a good kid but everything about the way he dressed and walked and talked and comported himself virtually shouted “gang-banger.” He was complaining to me one day about how everyone out in everyday society seemed to react negatively to him and seemed not to like him, based on nothing more than the way he looked. I said, “Well, you dress and talk and act the way you do so your peers will think you’re all gangsta and badass and not to be messed with, and therefore one of them, right?” He answered yes, that was right. I said "So then why do expect everyone outside your group to be oblivious to those messages and not think that you are all gangsta and badass and not feel threatened by you? They think the same thing about you that your buddies do, only to them it says bad things and makes them feel threatened. He immediately saw the point and told me I should have been a psychiatrist or something…that he’d never looked at it that way before.

I left that company shortly thereafter but I saw him again several years later when I went back for a visit. He had changed completely and wondered if I even recognized him. After I told him I did, he said that the talk we had really opened his eyes on set him on the right track. He had given up not only the way he dressed and acted and the friends he had then, but he had gotten married and started working hard and being responsible and now he was one of the supervisors at the company where I used to work. Needless to say, I was walking on air when I left that day.

But the point isn’t to say “look at what a cool thing I did;” rather it’s to illustrate the fact that when you look and act all badass and project the image of someone who’s doing everything he can to thumb his nose at the mainstream of society, all you are doing is putting people off and throwing up obstacles to being accepted in that society.

Now, that’s all well and good if estrangement from society is your goal. But in terms of combatting racism, part of the solution is going to have to come from the black community even though they certainly didn’t ask for the discrimination they’ve been subjected to, and they’re going to have to start working to discourage or eliminate the negative behavior that has become emblematic of certain aspects of black culture. It’s an unfortunate fact of life that one bad apple spoils the whole bunch, and as long as there are so many bad apples functioning as the public face of the black community, racism is going to be a significant problem no matter how much the rest of society tries to eliminate it.

59

I don’t know. But reparations would be a good start.

  • Honesty
60

“When a man has emerged from slavery, and, by the aid of beneficent legislation, has shaken off the inseparable concomitants of that state, there must be some stage in the progress of his elevation when he takes the rank of a mere citizen and ceases to be the special favorite of the laws, and when his rights as a citizen or a man are to be protected in the ordinary modes by which other men’s rights are protected.”

-Supreme Court Justice Joseph Bradley in 1883.

This is not a new argument, and I don’t think it’s much more useful now than it was then, even if it has begun to pick up a bit of steam again (see for instance the Parents Involved case with the Seattle and Louisville schools). I spoke to Mary Frances Berry once about this particular point – whether or not it was time for the “color blind” society, and what to do about the claim that now it’s the blacks themselves who are keeping blacks in the projects. She told me that Martin Luther King said we should be blind to color, but he didn’t mean that we should be stupid about it.

Her point was that a true colorblind society is the goal, but that doesn’t mean that the most responsible and just method of achieving that goal is to immediately start pretending different racial groups don’t have different experiences which might need to be addressed by society. When you strip all the rhetorical sheen off of it, the question ultimately boils down to whether one feels that the group “blacks” (to oversimplify) has been given a “fair shake” up to this point in our history. If they’ve been given a fair opportunity to get out of slavery, then it’s time to be colorblind and stop making race-conscious decisions. If they haven’t, well, then, they ought to be.

My personal feeling is that we didn’t go far enough pre- or during Reconstruction, and that we haven’t made enough progress since then, either. It seems to me that a lot of people really don’t want to consider what the typical black American’s experience was pre-1960, much less pre-1890, and that leads to a pretty severe disconnect when we try to talk about race relations in 2009. On the one hand, some people are just totally over talking about slavery, like what the f, that’s ancient history. On the other hand, what happened right after slavery was pretty terrible, too, and what happened after that wasn’t much better, and so on and so forth until now it’s 2009. We – America – created this problem, and we never fixed it. Until real corrective measures were taken, in my view, it was and remains incredibly egotistical and shortsighted to expect “blacks” to just get in line and stop being angry, and we haven’t taken real corrective measures.