How sure are we about the 12 disciple's martyrdom?

Factual Questions
1

I have read books about Jesus’ 12 disciples being killed for their faith as if it were a fact. But, since these things happened so long ago, I want to know how sure the objective experts are that these things (such as John the Apostle’s refusal to die in boiling oil) really did happen.

  1. How sure are we that they died for their faith?

  2. How sure are we about the details surrounding the stories? What types of original and other sources do we have, or did have recently, that told these stories/fables?

2

As I understand it, we aren’t even sure that Jesus even existed. So we can’t be sure of the rest either.

3

…John the Apostle’s refusal to die in boiling oil…

How does one refuse to die in boiling oil? Seems to me if you’re a position to be killed, you’re not in a position to dictate how it’s done.

My understanding is that many of the apostles are only mentioned once or twice in the bible, and not at all in other sources. We barely know their names, much less when and how they died. Methinks the books you refer to are based largely on wishful thinking.

4

May I ask what your “understanding” is based on? Are you educated in this topic in any way? By the way, Peter’s house still stands today… it is contained in a church in Capernaum, IIRC. I would guess we know a little more about these dudes than you imply, GaryT. How much we know is certainly up for debate, though.

John was thrown in boiling oil and didn’t die, supposedly. (That’s why he was exiled to Patmos, because the Emperor didn’t want to risk more embarrassment by failing to kill him again and giving more faith to the spectators.) Couldn’t you gather that much, rather than get hung up on the point you stated?!

5

The question was “How sure?”, not if we are sure. I am completely aware that there is no assurance about any event or person 2000 years ago…

6

It is notable that, when assembling Scripture, the Chuch did not include many details of the Apostles’ lives. While their lives and martyrdoms can be inspiring, enlightening, and edifying, they are of lesser importance than the messages in Scripture. In other words, the Apostles aren’t the point, Christ is.

Mind you, I’m in a Church that is very big on veneration of the Apostles and other Saints, so I’m not just dismissing them.

7

Dogface If I find beyond a reasonable doubt that many of these martyr stories are fiction, then logically I should be more inclined to believe that some other things written in that time (some stories in the Gospels) might be fiction as well, correct?

And on the other side of the coin, if it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that all 12 (or most) of the apostle’s died for their genuine faith, I would be more inclined to believe Jesus Christ was who he claimed to be and who they claimed he was, correct (rather than assume them all lunatics)?

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the disciples don’t matter or that they aren’t the point, which sounds like what you are saying. And I also wouldn’t say that the disciple’s stories are of critical importance to anyone’s faith in J.C. It’s somewhere in the middle, you see.

Knowledge never hurt anyone and I would like to gain some in this thread. It’s cool to know the story behind what all these books claim as truth. (“Jesus Freaks” & “Foxe’s” to name a few)

Any historians out there?

8

Fuel: The deaths of two of the original Twelve are described in Scripture: Judas and James bar Zebedee. The martyrdoms of nine of the others, plus Matthias and Paul, are from the earliest traditions of the church, and have been preserved down through the years. (Dogface could probably be a lot more authoritative on this than I.) And I celebrated my 4,000th post on this board by recounting the story told by my namesake of John’s last words.

Are these traditions proven? Heck, no! Are they reasonably well documented, and traceable back to within a hundred years of the accounts they recall? In many cases, yes.

9

Is something less likely to be fiction because it has been included in Scripture?

Alternatively, is something more likely to be false merely because it was not included? Scripture was not compiled to be the end-all and be-all of Christian belief. It is the touchstone, the “basic work”, but it is not the sum total. Indeed, nowhere in Scripture does it say that it is. Furthermore, the Gospel of John makes it plain that many events occurred that were not recorded.

10

Dogface, I don’t what you are smokin’ buddy, but I never said these things that you are assuming I implied! Somehow, somewhere along the way, you got the idea that the Bible had something to do with what I am talking about. Thank you for showing interest in my topic, but please read more throughly, or think, or something…

Since you misunderstood something here, when we clear things up, can you point me to some good info… I hear you are educated in this area.

11

And for the sake of completeness: in some other cases, you find yourself wading through a lot of what apparently are after-the-fact embellishments or additions of someone else’s stories, but eventually you do get to the point that they died as martyrs somehow (except for John, who oil or no oil lived to old age). Scholars will tend to let be the more extraordinary claims of miraculous happennings (e.g. John’s visit to the deepfryer, or three fountains springing from where Paul’s head bounced) as unverifiable matters of belief, and focus on what they can document.

In that sense, the various traditions and records Polycarp mentions point to that at the very least they followed their calling to ministry to the point of placing themselves in a position to meet their end sooner and rougher than they would had they kept to their fishing.

12

??..There is no real truth about anyone that lived 2000 yrs ago?

There are many people who lived back then that we know for a fact lived. And many events.

13

In the above quote we have:

  1. Jesus indicating Peter would be martyred.

  2. The “disciple whom he love,” traditionally associated with the Apostle John, (but modern mainline scholarly consensus is that he’s not John) would not be martyred.

  3. The attestation of the validity of the existence of the historical Jesus (which is as much historical evidence we have of Socrates’ existence).

And as a minor nitpick: 12 Apostles, not the 12 disciples. Any follower of Jesus is a disciple (i.e., literally ‘student’), and Jesus had/has many more than 12.

There is no documentary evidence, but church tradition rather early attests to the martyrdom of all the Apostles except John. Tradition puts Peter’s martyrdom in Rome.

St. Matthias, who filled in for Judas was not one of the original twelve, although, he had been ‘present from the beginning’ of Jesus’ ministry. This was the last time that one of the Twelve was replaced. And tradition has Matthias being martyred.

St. Paul was not one of the original 12, although he was considered an Apostle (not by replacement, but by self-declaration and eventual acceptance as such). St. Paul was martyred in Rome by tradition (the Acts of the Apostles has Paul in Rome awaiting his trial when it ends).

Peace.

One hour martyrizing

14

First of all, Fuel, there were a total of thirteen apostles, not 12. And 11 of them, as far as myth goes, recieved a martyrs death.

First of all, we know Judas Iscariot hung himself after he betrayed Jesus. So he can not be considered as a martyr.

But, as they say, to Hell with Judas, let’s go for the true 12 desciples.

Caution: I’m going to stay as close to biblical text as I can.

And here are the myths: (take them as fact as you will)

St. Peter, Simon Bar Jona, or Cephas

I think we all pretty much have a good idea whom he is. You know, deny three times, blah blah blah… But Peter was supposedly crucified upside down thiry years to the day that Jesus was crucified. Many consider him to be the first pope, as he founded the Roman Church.

St. Bartholomew, Nathaniel

He was the apostle of India. He supposedly exorcised several demons from Indian temples, until Astyages got ahold of him. Then, as it’s been told, he was flayed alive (ouch!). But afterwords, the priests of Astyages supposedly died.

The rest are less well known of:

Andrew brother of St. Peter

Known for helping feeding with bread and fish. He is said to have been crucified.

James the Greater

First apostle to die. That’s about it.

John

Brother of James the Greater. He authored the fourth gospel. He is also the only one of the apostles to escape a martyrs death. Or so they say

Jude, Lebbaeus

Brother of James the Less. Nothing really, except he MIGHT have been martyred in Persia.

James the Less

First Bishop of Jerusalem…possibly? He was probably done in by a fuller’s club in Italy.

Matthew

Tax collector. Possibly martyred in Ethiopia? Something about a dragon…?

Matthias

Judas’ replacement. All that I can find is that he was be-headed.

Philip

Abandoned family to walk with Jesus. Something about him being crucified upside down…

Simon

The Zealot. Jewsih guy. Loved Christ. Probably killed in Persia.

and…

Doubting Thomas

Skeptical about the resurrection. Done in by an Indian prince.

And there you have it. If you know more, then list it, you jerk!

Thanks,
The MeatBeast

15

And by the way, I forgot to give my cite…what I didn’t know from study came from “The Big Book of Martyrs” Gentlemen, thank you much.

16

Yeah, including whether that’s actually Peter’s house. For one thing, if it’s not visible from Calvary, as Sacred Tradition attests, it just isn’t his house!

And for another, if you gathered up all the fragments of the True Cross that have existed over time, you’d have one big mother of a cross. Jesus would have been squashed like a bug carrying all that wood. There have been several “Veronica’s Veils,” probably enough over the years that she would have had to have carried a whole laundry basket of linen and spent a half hour making souveniers to pass out to the crowd.

This doesn’t mean that Peter and Jesus didn’t exist–it’s a well known joke, of course, that George Washington didn’t live long enough to sleep in all the beds that boast of his occupancy, for instance–but just because someone decided that it would bring in more money if they had a tourist destination or a relic doesn’t mean those things are actually what they claim to be.