How the game is played (baseball)

In My Humble Opinion
1

This is a bit of a rant, but I’m going to ask for opinions at the end, so I think this is the right forum.

A few nights ago, Shinjo swung at a 3-0 pitch when the Mets have a big lead. Apparently, the idiot Marlins think this is a grave offense, so the next game they plunk him for “retaliation.” WTF? Since when is this cause for retaliation? Is there some rule that as long as your team is winning by a big enough margin you have to sit there and take it like a chump when the pitcher throws something nice and juicy down the middle of the plate? Yes, I realize that there are unwritten rules about not embarassing the team you’re in the process of slaughtering, but this isn’t like stealing a base in the 9th with an 8 run lead. Batters go up to the plate trying to get hits, no matter what size their team’s lead is. If not, we’d have “intentional strikeouts,” where batters intentionally swing and miss at three pitches in a row to get the inning over with.

At least Mets manager Bobby Valentine had some common sense about it, unlike the Marlins. He said:
“ If they think swinging at a 3-0 pitch is cause for retaliation, then they’ll find out what retaliation is. I’ve been in this game 33 years, and it’s been established that swinging 3-0 is not a reason to hurt a man or throw at him. … It’s the new ‘Let’s-wear-a-skirt baseball,’ and I’ve never worn a skirt." ”

Now, I see an even more ridiculous incident tonight. The D-Backs manager (sorry, don’t know his name) was frothing at the mouth because Ben Davis broke up Curt Schilling’s perfect game in the 8th with a bunt single. I didn’t catch his entire rant, but he was complaining that dropping a lousy bunt single when getting no-hit is “not the way the game is played,” hence the thread title. An even bigger WTF from me on this one. At the time, San Diego, which is tied for first with Arizona, was down by two runs. If Davis gets on base, he brings up Bubba Trammell, who’s slugging over .500 with 8 homers to the plate as the potential tying run. But I guess the D-Back manager thinks that his pitcher’s precious no-hitter is more important than winning the ball game, and that the only “right” way to break up a no-hitter is with a clean, solid hit, not a crappy bunt single. Well, tough shit. A single’s a single. If you don’t like people bunting, change the damn rules. Don’t bitch because a player uses every tool available to try to win the game.

So, fellow baseball fans, since this is IMHO, what think you? Was Ichiro violating a sacred unwritten law by swinging at a 3-0 pitch? Was Davis being an asshole by bunting Schilling out of his perfect game?

(Just found out: Bob Brenly is the D-backs manager, and apparently Schilling was just as pissed as he was at the incident. What a pair of wussies.)

2

DBacks manager is Bob Brenly. (Whoops. Wrote that before I finished reading your post.) I live in Phoenix. I love baseball. Therefore, this is a fact I must know.

However, I didn’t watch the game, as I was hosting a party at the time. Occasionally, I’d check the broadcast. I didn’t know that it was a bunt single, but, I’m with you, Opus1. A single’s a single. Most no-hitters are just as much about your defense as they are about your pitching. If your fielders weren’t set up for a bunt, well - sorry, bud.

I remember two or three years ago, the Indians were beating Detroit by something like 7-1 late in the game. Mike Hargrove called for a squeeze play, which was successful. Buddy Bell, who was the Tigers’ manager at the time (and my all time fave Tribe 3rd baseman), was pissed. Hargrove apologized, saying that he had mistaken the score and thought the game closer than it was. WTF? Hey - you never know what’s going to happen in the late innings. You’re going to score runs any way you can, regardless of whether the score is close or a slaughter. Play every game as a one-run ballgame, and you’ll never sacrifice a lead unnecessarily.

All in all, I’m with you, Opus1.

3

I agree with both of you.

As Opus1 pointed out, there is an unwritten rule that you don’t “show up” a team when you’re beating them and the game is out of reach (Of course, what “showing up” is and how big a lead puts the game “out of reach” are conveniently undefined). Generally, I believe you don’t steal bases, sacrifice, bunt for hits, or hit and run. However, swinging at a 3-0 pitch is pretty benign as things go. At least in my opinion.

Anyone being angry about the Ben Davis situation is WAY out of line. Yes, there’s an unwritten rule that if it’s late in the game, and the pitcher has a no-hitter, you don’t try to bunt your way on. If the game is more or less decided. But with the on deck hitter being the tying run, no way is this game decided. One swing and the game is tied. It’s utterly absurd for anyone to think that Davis was somehow being “unsporting”.

4

I have never heard of swinging at a 3-0 pitch when your team has a huge lead as being an example of showing up the other team. And I’ve been watching baseball for 35 years.

Stealing late in the game when your team’s up by a ton, yes, that’s pretty much common knowledge. Rookies “admiring” their homeruns (or any other form of hotdogging after a veteran pitcher has just been taken long) is another one, though less so than when I was a kid.

As much as I hate to agree with anyone on the Mets, I’m with Valentine: what a bunch of sissies. (“Hey! Stop swinging at our pitches! We wanted to get a strike, you big, bad meanie!”)

And I also agree re: the D’backs. Playing baseball to win can never be deemed bad form, so long as you play within the rules. Two-run deficit in the 8th? You need baserunners. Period. Anyone who has a problem with this (including Schilling, whom I still like but who can be a real baby) doesn’t understand the game.

5

I have NEVER heard of either of these things being against any unwritten law, and I have watched, played, and studied more baseball than I can possibly describe.

Swining at a 3-0 pitch is bad manners? That’s completel bullshit. Bunting to get on base in a 2-0 game, no hitter or not? Nothing wrong with that. I’ll say this, though; if I’m Bobby Valentine, the next time I play the Marlins, Preston Wilson’s getting a 95-MPH fastball right in the ass.

I do see a sort of bizarre “wussification” of baseball whereby everything seems to be against a new unwritten law they apparently just unwrote last week. I remember back when the Blue Jays won the World Series, some opposing managers bitched they were stealing signs (just be decoding them, not by any illegal means) which they certainly were and were quite unfront about. Of course they were stealing signs. You’re supposed to. If you’re not, why the hell do they encode the signs?

6

Won’t matter – Wilson’ll still swing at it.

7

I see this kind of garbage all the time…in the arcades. (Wait, don’t leave, I’m going somewhere with this.) Anytime you get two or more people in head-to-head competition, feathers are going to get ruffled and toes stepped on. Between a bunch of gamers just trying to have a good time, this isn’t a big deal. In professional sports, however, I find this tedious sore-loser whining incredibly annoying.

Wanna know why “running up the score” is seen as a serious problem in college football, yet almost no one complains about it in the NFL despite several absolute massacres every year? Because a professional football team is supposed to be competitive and avoid getting spanked. (Plus the league sets all the schedules, so the teams can’t be blamed for weak opposition, but that’s another issue.) There’s very little mercy in this business. Put up or shut up.

Getting to the OP - It’s usually inadvisable to swing on a 3-0 pitch regardless of the lead. But if it’s a good pitch, any decent batter would be a fool not to. If the pitcher really wants to avoid giving up a big hit (say, up by 3 with the bases loaded), he can aim for a corner, and even if it misses it’s just a walk. As for the 8th inning bunt…well, nowadays bunting under any circumstance is a gutsy play. But the fielders have to be ready for it. Bunts are usually easy to turn into ground outs if you get right on them. Bottom line, this was a gamble…necessitated by the 2-run deficit…which worked. Neither case warranted any kind of retaliation.

As far as “sportsmanship” goes, I have one burning question…what the hell is a “big lead”? Sheesh, nowadays 12-5 is an average game. Remember, there’s no such thing as an insurmountable lead in baseball, and a few hot batters can absolutely blow the game open in a single inning (even the Rangers).

Finally, is it even possible to know all the unwritten rules for each situation? You’re asking athletes who are playing to win to immediately recognize when it’s no longer “necessary” to do so. Get real.

8

Hmmmmm. Mets leading big, 3-0 count, obvious strike pitch coming, everyone knows it, and he swings…

First of all, the REASON the pitcher pipes a 3-0 pitch is because you DON’T swing at it (it is stupid to swing at a possible walk pitch when you aren’t really going to be hurt much by taking a strike - force the stupid guy on the mound to prove he can actually put one over the plate). So, the ‘unwritten’ rule goes as follows: batters take 3-0 pitches because it makes sense to do so, pitchers therefore throw one down the middle knowing the batter won’t swing, batters who DO swing are taking advantage of this situation, which if ALL batters did would mean that pitchers would try to throw a pitch to MAKE them swing and miss, and as anyone who truly watches baseball (as I have for 30+ years) knows, when you attempt to gain an ‘unfair’ advantage by ignoring the traditional methodology of the game, you become fair game for efforts by the opponents to return you to being a good little boy, e.g. plunking you with a pitch on the butt. Now, if Shinjo had done this when the game was close, the opponents would fume, but accept that the effort to get an advantage by swinging at a ‘fat’ pitch was borderline ‘ok’. But with the game sewn up (remember, they weren’t in Coors field), the question becomes, “Why swing at such a pitch?” To which the only answer is, “Because I wanted to rub your faces in our superiority,” or “Because I need to pad my stats and parking a nice fat juicy 85 MPH fastball belt high would help me enormously come renegotiation.” Neither answer is calculated to gain friends.
Now that no-hitter bunt is a totally different story. Brenly always was a hothead; and not particularly smart. And Schilling was on Philadelphia for quite a while, where everyone knows they have little sense and lots of emotion. :wink:

9

Brenly, like most people associated with the management of the D-Backs, is an idiot.
“Hey, our team is old and we’re running low on money, so let’s give an expensive contract to Mark Grace to fill a position for which we already have a good player!”

As for swinging at 3-0 pitch late in a rout, I think it should be encouraged. All you want at that time is to get the game over. Would the Marlins have preferred that Shinjo draw a walk?

In baseball, you can’t run out the clock. And there’s no mercy rule in the big leagues.

10

A BETTER player. A hell of a hitter who should be traded to an organization that would appreciate him and make full use of his talents.

11

Who might that be? Oh…Durazo.

DSYoungEsq, I disagree with your 3-0 assessment. Sure, in most cases, it’s easier not to swing. You might just get that walk. But probably not - you’re probably going to get that nice fastball down the heart of the plate. Why waste it? A lot of hitters, experienced ones, anyway, swing at 3-0. Inexperienced hitters don’t often get the “green light” from the coaching staff.

Besides, if a pitcher gets down 3-0, it’s his own fault. Why should the hitter make his job easier? Why even HAVE a 3-0 pitch if nobody’s allowed to swing at it? Just go from 2-0 to 3-1. That would speed up the game a bit.

The only cause for “retaliation” pitches should be brush-backs and beanballs issued by the opposing pitcher. NOT the fact that the hitter actually did his job and swung at the pitch, or, God forbid, got a hit. Last year, Einar Diaz had the unholy temerity to get a double (actually, it might have been two) off the sacred Pedro. During his next at-bat, Pedro retaliated against the presumption of this young player hitting a pitch successfully. How churlish can you get?

12

Huh? Weaker, less-disciplined hitters will probably not be given the green light (for most players, the manager decides) to swing on a 3-0 pitch against a pitcher who is struggling to find the strike zone. Then again, maybe he will get to swing away, depending upon the situation (how has he handled this pitcher?, how many outs?, are men on base?, who’s up next in the order?, etc.). Premiere hitters often get to decide for themselves, regardless of circumstances.

It’s up to the defense to see if they can guess right (will he take one or not?), and it has always been that way. If this has changed, I missed the memo. There is no unwritten rule that says always take a 3-0 pitch, and pitchers do not automatically groove one with this count. If you don’t believe me, watch what is served up the next time you see Bonds or Piazza get a 3-0 pitch. Yes, a 3-0 count most often results in the batter laying off, but it ain’t automatic.

And, of course, Schilling is not a native Philadelphian like me. If he were, his reaction would have been much more level-headed and logical.

13

DSYoungEsq, I can’t help but disagree with you. There is no such thing as a blowout until the final out is made, and the name of the game is getting on base and scoring runs.

And it’s ridiculous to maintain that “nobody swings at a 3-0 pitch.” Sez who? Would John McGraw or Ty Cobb have held off a juicy pitch? I think not. They knew you had to gain whatever advantage you could.

In fact, the issue with Shinjo is not that he swung at a 3-0 pitch, but that he got a hit off a 3-0 pitch. If he had missed for strike one, no one would have said anything. Further proof of the Marlins being whining crybabies in this instance.

As for the bunt single messing up a perfect game, tough titty. Why blame the batter? Blame the catcher or the infielder who didn’t field it properly and throw the runner out in time.

No one player in baseball “deserves” an advantage or a specific result, be it a perfect game, a .300 average or a World Series victory. The other team, made up of professional Major Leaguers also, is there to prevent you from achieving what you want. They owe you nothing, and “unwritten rules” don’t mean much. Hot-dogging or showing someone up is subjective anyway. Somebody’s ox has to get gored.

14

Well, when John McGraw was a player, he must not have swung at too many 3-0 pitches. He drew a ton of walks. In 1899, he walked 124 times in just 117 games. He had an OBP that season of 547!

15

This is the first I ever heard of it being unfair to swing 3-0. The reason it’s taken a lot is hitters tend to zone on the pitch - i.e. if I get a belthigh fastball on the outer half, I swing, else I take, strike or not. If i’m Valentine, Piazza and Alfonzo can swing 3-0 whenever they want.

The Brenly mess? It was 2-0! It brings up the tying run! If it was 6-0, Davis is playing against etiquette. Not here. That’s like when Rose whined about Garber breaking his hit streak without throwing fastballs. Gene Garber’s fastball was about as good as my grandmother’s, that’s why he threw sinkers.

DKW, another reason you have running up the score in college football is so the pollsters see "Oklahoma beat East Tucson State Teacher's College for Women 879-0" and they vote them #1. Pros have real playoffs.
16

I spent last night watching the Cubs - Reds game carefully, and on not one occaision did I see anyone swing at a 3-0 pitch. I felt all vindicated, till I recalled that neither team has a really good hitter … :wink:

17

[Defensive Reds fan]
cough cough bullshit! cough cough Sean Casey isn’t good with a .338 batting average? Granted he didn’t play in last nights game but still.
[\Defensive Reds fan]

18

What in the hell is an “unwritten rule”? It’s either a rule or it isn’t, folks, and as long as the guys playing are doing it for money, they’d better be doing everything they can to win. Hell yes, I’d be swinging on a 3-0 count. I’m not about to give up a free strike - I’m gonna try and crush that sucker.

As for bunting to break up a perfect game…well, I sure wouldn’t want to be in the record books as the patsies who HELPED Schilling get his perfect game by not trying my hardest.

19

On the other hand, maybe wussification isn’t so new. I distinctly recall reading somewhere (probably a Roger Angell article) that either Bob Gibson or Don Drysdale (can’t remember which) did not take kindly to batters who…get this…swung hard.

Something to the effect that coming out of your cleats, popping your buttons, trying to get at one of their offerings was “showing the pitcher up”, and they’d more likely than not drill the batter on the next pitch.

But then, Gibson & Drysdale were notorious hard-asses.

20

It was 2 doubles, not 1, and I believe those were the only Cleveland hits in the game at that point. No, flipping him the next AB (instead of just coming in with the high heat was wrong, but still, a great pitcher like Pedro can’t let the Einar Diazes of the world think they can hit him. Worse, he can’t let the teammates of the Diazes start to think “Hey, if THAT nobody can do it, so can I!”. Gibson and Drysdale would have understood.