How tired are you of being rational, fair, and even handed, especially in Politics and News?

The BBQ Pit
1

I was going to put this in IMHO, as it’s more than JUST politics and elections, but the more I thought about it, the more it felt Rant-y, and knew it would likely produce the same sort of emotional disgust in others as it does for myself, so I’ll save the mods the effort of eventually moving it to the Pit.

-sigh-

So, I was reading recent Main-stream news, as well as several threads here, and got just unspeakably frustrated by a conflict between my ideals. I mean, I -want- to know when Biden screws up, when he makes gaffs, or when anti-Trump efforts fail, because it’s important. And it’s important that those things be reported with as much honesty, and with as little spin as possible.

But when I’m talking with people who follow conservative media, every single problem, error, and critical lawsuit on their side is buried on the equivalent of page 5, and even then spun out of all resemblance to the truth if it’s reported at all.

Similarly, in terms of intellectual honesty, if I have to argue with someone in the RWNJ infosphere, if they bring up a factually correct problem, or address an issue that Democrats on a whole don’t handle well, I agree with the problem, even if I almost always vehemently disagree with the solution. But that always somehow translates to them thinking they’ve “won” or that their solution is superior just because they’ve identified an actual problem!

Now of COURSE this isn’t limited to just politics. It seems intrinsic to human nature, see our recent threads about Flat Earthers, Ancient Aliens, or other conspiracy theory. Such adherents don’t feel responsible to accept rational, fair, and even handed evaluations of facts or observable reality, because it doesn’t fit with the POV they have chosen to argue from.

Now I refuse to abandon my respect for the rational and observation based efforts to deal with the world around me, but dammit, more often than not, I’m willing to to throw out the even handed and polite elements. Or in the vernacular:

Fuck them.

Okay, yeah, good I put this in the PIT rather than IMHO or MPSIMS.

Feel free to share your feelings, including your conflicts between the poles of propaganda and populist manipulation, or just your techniques for dealing with things when you feel you’re the only adult in the room.

2

To put it another way, Playing chess with a Pigeon sucks, but on the other hand shitting on the board yourself doesn’t really make it any better.

3

Yeah, I’ve spent literally decades trying to ague with these people in good faith, and it’s just exhausting.

A few months back we had a Trumper at out local pub who started spouting off typical Trumper bullshit. I could ignore it when it was just economics bullshit, but then he started getting into the whole anti-trans, groomer, abusing kids bullshit, and I lost it, and told him to his face he didn’t have a fucking clue about anything, and that everything he’d just said was bullshit. Of course, it didn’t change his mind, but it was cathartic.

He was banned from the pub a couple of weeks later for going off on some kind of homophobic rant about some of the regulars, who are gay. I wasn’t there to see that, but I wasn’t at all surprised to hear about it.

4

I’m glad to hear it.

I think I’m ranting (in part) because Colorado Springs is heavily conservative, and while I and my wife are most certainly not, and my in-laws lean that way, they aren’t rabid MAGA types (although I’m still positive most vote Republican anyway) the majority of the people I have to interact with everyday at work are just the sort I mentioned. Watercooler (not that there is one, but the meme lives one!) chat is all about whatever Fox crap was spewed the day before, and (of course) the only TV in the breakroom is on Fox.

So every single day the one sided barrage of propaganda and disinformation is spewed at me.

In some ways, the Religious Right is correct in that there is a failure in American values, what they don’t see is that they’re a large part of it! While never adhered to in full, there was an acceptance that “fair play” and “good sportsmanship” and “ethical behavior” was expected for all persons. FULLY GRANTED, the levels of such were always fluid, especially if the person involved did not match the color, religion, or income level of the surrounding group, but it was still expected, and breaking the norms was frowned on.

With the Religious Right being a thing though, it became much more a thing of good vs evil. And of course, if you’re good, then there’s nothing wrong with cheating if the other side is evil, riiiiiight (massive sarcasm, just in case it isn’t obvious). To the point now where if you are fair, evenhanded, or show good sportsmanship (or bipartisanship in government) now YOU’RE evil because you don’t want YOUR side to win.

Of course, it all existed, and was getting worse before Trump, but the odious black goo that he is, turned it along with the rest of his “Everyone is cheating, so I’m cheating too. Only losers play by the rules.” to 11. Which (talking to another current thread) is how you get Republican candidates like Boebert talking about how they break the law while the audience (good “Christians” the lot of them) cheer on.

It makes me want to weep, or well, punch someone in the face. Depending on the day.

5

I’ve given up on trying to face an opponent head-on. In fact, I’d argue that in most situations in life, that is the least efficient way to win a contest. It’s like trying to stop a 60-mile per hour school bus by standing in front of it with your body.

Rather, I prefer to steer from within. Infiltrate the opposing camp, slowly push them in subtle directions. So instead of stopping the school bus with your body, you climb aboard it, get behind the wheel, and steer the bus in the direction you want it to go.

So yes, I played the “rational, fair, even-handed” game for many years. Left me exhausted. Nowadays I blend in and try to mix in as one of their own. Typically on Reddit and Facebook, but also elsewhere as well.

The Straight Dope, though, is one of the few places where I can actually be myself and say what’s on my mind.

6

I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that it used to be that conservatives were mostly rational and both sides were dealing in the same facts, and you could actually discuss things rationally with them.

But in the past 10-15 years, the GOP has steadily divorced itself and their followers from the same sources of news and information that everyone else uses, and now you can’t even discuss things with that side of the spectrum, because what you’ve been told is true by reputable news outlets is NOT what they’ve been told.

So it’s no longer a question of which way to go on a specific event/question and discussing the ramifications, ethics and what-not. It’s now a more fundamental debate over what the actual state of things is/what’s actually happening, and not about what should be done about it.

I mean, everything I’ve read implies that illegal immigration is pretty much business as usual these days- there’s not an unusually huge number showing up lately or anything. But the conservative news machine and political candidates are making it out like there’s a huge crisis or something going on, although without any real proof or anything- they’re just saying it like it’s self-evident. So you can’t really argue what should be done, if you can’t even agree about what is actually going on, and neither side is willing to listen.

I feel like the first thing that needs doing is to get back to the same unified news sources. I’m not sure how you hamstring or otherwise fore the Foxes and NewsMaxes and OANNs of the country to clean up their acts without running afoul of the First Amendment, but it absolutely needs to be done.

7

I’ve been felt puzzled and alone in this respect since third grade when we had an election for student government. The candidates all gave speeches, and one of them was very thoughtful and talked about several reasonable things he wanted to do. But they elected the popular kid instead. Not too different from where I sit now as an adult.

But even then, I wasn’t interested in voting for that guy, I thought the ideas he represented were good. And again, I feel the same way now. I’m uncomfortable supporting a person, rather than a slate of ideas and policy goals. I realize our system personifies that set of ideas as an individual to vote for or against, and that’s fine. But it’s utterly bizarre how it becomes about a person, and people go to rallies about that person. Even if I identified heavily with the ideas a candidate espoused, I can’t see myself going to cheer for them in a big crowd. I’ll certainly march for a cause, or in protest of something unjust. But I can’t see cheering for a person. I think it’s just weird.

And I’m sick of myself in political discussions being the guy that says, “Well, there’s more to it than that…” because I’ve read beyond the headlines. And I do mean read, because I’ve become convinced anyone getting their news by watching any form of video is deluding themselves by being fed what the makers want us to see.

With no exaggeration, I have viewed zero news in the form of TV or video, with the exception of certain events such as George Floyd’s murder and parts of the 1/6 insurrection which need to be seen for context. Marshall McLuhan was 100% right - the way we take in information is just as important as the contest. I choose to read, and I wish more people would too.

All this to say… I’m a weirdo, and I go through life feeling rather alone in this respect. I’m fairly happy otherwise, but I find the way people process information and generally behave as if politics were a soap opera baffling and disturbing.

8

I have no patience with stupid on either side of the fence. But I’ve stopped caring about hurting someone’s feelings when they’re spouting bullshit. I have a deep, abiding hatred for Trump and his enablers and only wish the worst for all of them. If they were suddenly struck by a very selective plague, I’d dance for joy.

9

I don’t encounter political division much.
I’ve worked in liberal places, a library and a school. I cared for a network in a sales business which I’d would think was conservative, but all they spoke of was making money.
How do you get into these altercations or conversations?

10

I’m the same, but without watching video news, you can’t appreciate why consumers of video news believe the things they believe.

If you don’t know why they believe what they believe, then you have no hope of understanding or persuading them, because they will seem outright stupid rather than just having formed a bizarre worldview resulting from poor media consumption habits. You are unprepared to talk about “did you know liberals will deliver a baby and then abort it 6 months later if the mother doesn’t want it.”

11

Maybe so, but I can just feel my IQ points fading away whenever I see TV news. Not worth it.

Also, I made a typo - I meant to say McLuhan was right about the “content” of information, not contest.

12

My Wife and I are both Moderate, leaning a bit left. Works great.

My Wife’s brother (my BIL) is a Trumper. BUT I consider him to be an intelligent guy. He was a CEO of a company that made valves for oil companies, and also the military. So I guess I see how his opinion was formed.

But, we all get along great, unless the politic (or religion) topic comes up. We work great together doing guy stuff. Tractors, chainsaws bonfires, that kind of stuff.

My BIL told me that I’m the ‘crew boss’ of his two 30 something sons (they didn’t know jack about this stuff), while he, on a different tractor mowed about 20 acres. Uhhh, OK.

One of the ‘kids’ (nephews in-law) is far left (music) the other far right (oil business). I was put in charge, in the middle. So my far right BIL saw something I guess. That, and I know all this equipment stuff. Had a great, if busy day for ALL of us. 80 acres is a bit of work.

My wife recently saw her brother, and they started talking about Trumps stolen classified documents. He started claiming the witch hunt BS and that Biden did the same thing. My Wife wants to write him about it, but I’m sure it’s a lost cause.
:face_with_diagonal_mouth: If you don’t see by now, you never will. I asked my wife to show me the letter if she writes it, I’m sure I could add a TON of crap to it. But there is probably no point. I just don’t want my wife to break a relationship with her last surviving brother.