How to make a creationist become evolutionist

Great Debates
1

Before i start with my problem, let me tell u i live in Indonesia, for u that dont know, its the biggest Muslims country in the world …
In here people still believe that evolutions is only a hoax, even in the schools right now, the students no longer study evolution as part of biology (excepts international school).
I’ve been debating for quite a long time in indonesians forum, untill i get banned because insulting their beliefs, i think after talking about evolution, then adam and eve, it’s unavoided …
So help me guys, fight the ignorance, in my country, how to make them believe evolotions does happen …
Since it harder than i thought …
FYI : they use their arguments mainly from www.harunyahya.com.

Sorry for bad english, i am also an Indonesians, and english is not my mother tongue …

My cousin dont beleive in evolution
2

All you can do is present people with the information you have, and the places to get more information, and hope that they come to the correct conclusions. Creationism vs. evolution debates break down into nasty arguments fast, because the best defense against someone arguing for evolution is to be offended. It’s hard (impossible) to argue against evolution with facts and knowledge and information, so people resist with emotions like anger.

Hardly anyone will ever have their world view suddenly changed by learning something new. It takes time, if it happens at all. More likely, if you attack their position, they will feel threatened and fortify themselves against your arguments even more. So the best thing you can do is relax, never get into personal arguments, never try to dump everything you know in one big post or argument but rather introduce your points one at a time over the course of a discussion. Always be civil, and never attack the person you’re debating.

I don’t always follow that advice. Sometimes I just like saying what’s on my mind, and I’m not actually interested in whether I have convinced someone to come over to my side. In this forum for example, people are pretty much decided on their political and religious beliefs, but that doesn’t mean discussing and debating them isn’t fun. So there’s something else you can do: stop trying to change the world. It’s a lot less aggrivating to be ignored or dismissed when you aren’t so emotionally invested in the outcome of these discussions.

3

Welcome aboard, OffLimit, and I wish you luck in this endeavor. Forgive my faint-heartedness, but I’m not confident I can face too much of that site. The expertise to expose the emptiness of the “arguments” put forth by evolution deniers is assuredly gathered here, though.

Pardon me for dwelling on it, but if you’ve already been banned from the board where you have been debating, how do you propose to return there with whatever arguments you are able to acquire?

Also, is the creation myth they subscribe to the standard one we know from Genesis, or are there some subtle (or blatant) differences it would be helpful for us to know about?

4

[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Welcome aboard, OffLimit, and I wish you luck in this endeavor. Forgive my faint-heartedness, but I’m not confident I can face too much of that site. The expertise to expose the emptiness of the “arguments” put forth by evolution deniers is assuredly gathered here, though.

Pardon me for dwelling on it, but if you’ve already been banned from the board where you have been debating, how do you propose to return there with whatever arguments you are able to acquire?

Also, is the creation myth they subscribe to the standard one we know from Genesis, or are there some subtle (or blatant) differences it would be helpful for us to know about?
[/QUOTE]

Thnx, the arguments they have is mainly from harun yahya, the so called scientist for the Islamic believers, is not that diffrent from the genesis, but a lot detailed (they have the same roots after all …)
Harun yahya always claimed that the evolution is crumbling, or the scientist is already denied the evolutions theory, or the fossil is only a hoax, just take a look at the site www.harunyahya.com …
How will i return there ? make a new ID ..

5

Welcome. I wish I could give you a perfect solution, but we have lots of idiots in the US also.

I took a look at one of the books in your link, this one and after a short, historical summary, the lies began. For instance

That’s not true, mutations are mostly neutral, often harmful, but often useful. You can prove this - consider a gene that had a slight, harmful, mutation, not enough to be a problem for reproduction in the short run. Why can’t that gene mutate back to its original state, which would be helpful?

Take a look at talkorigins.org, which contains a refutation of most of the arguments of creationists in a handy format.

How many statements from those books do you think you have to prove false before anyone listens?

Are there segments of the Islamic world that have no problem with evolution? There must be. Would pointing to them help?

Good luck, and we’ll give you information and maybe clearer explanations for things you may have trouble with in talkorigins - though it is very clear.

6

[QUOTE=Voyager]
Welcome. I wish I could give you a perfect solution, but we have lots of idiots in the US also.

I took a look at one of the books in your link, this one and after a short, historical summary, the lies began. For instance

That’s not true, mutations are mostly neutral, often harmful, but often useful. You can prove this - consider a gene that had a slight, harmful, mutation, not enough to be a problem for reproduction in the short run. Why can’t that gene mutate back to its original state, which would be helpful?

Take a look at talkorigins.org, which contains a refutation of most of the arguments of creationists in a handy format.

How many statements from those books do you think you have to prove false before anyone listens?

Are there segments of the Islamic world that have no problem with evolution? There must be. Would pointing to them help?

Good luck, and we’ll give you information and maybe clearer explanations for things you may have trouble with in talkorigins - though it is very clear.
[/QUOTE]

Haha already been there, and the www.skeptically.org, the problem continues because they believe that the web is only west propaganda to make Islam a bad name, wikipedia also no objective by their point of view (if wikipedia not objective, i dont know what is …)
And also the problem is so small prove about postive mutations (red sickle cell and ?)
i have been proving many statements of the book false, but still u cannot prove that adam and eve is a false theory (or can u ?)
If there are any Islams that have no problem with evolution, they would called it Liberals Islams, with their point of view, liberals Islams same as the devils himself …
How bout the Christians in US, adam and eve is now consider a fairytale ? or still believe by a majorities as a true story ?

7

Well, if the problem is that they believe anything written or published in the west is simply “anti-Islamic propaganda” then we’re going to have trouble proving otherwise - after all, most sources we might quote are western.

Are there any pro-evolution voices in Islam? I mean hell, even the Catholic church accepts the general principle here in the west.

8

[QUOTE=OffLimit]
i have been proving many statements of the book false, but still u cannot prove that adam and eve is a false theory (or can u ?)
[/QUOTE]

We know that humans existed before language likely did. How did Adam and Eve do all that talking to God and each other and their descendants with all of those complex and abstract constructions, if language didn’t exist among the earliest humans?

9

Greetings OffLimit and welcome to the Straight Dope!

I would try the National Center for Science Education, which pushes the teaching of evolution in US High Schools. Perhaps their experience with US Christian Fundamentalist concerns would be helpful.

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/7956_12_tips_for_testifying_at_scho_3_19_2001.asp

http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp

After looking over their website, you could even email them – they may be able to put you in touch with those who practice Islam but accept evolution.

10

The best argument I have heard for evolution is the guy that gets TB.
the doctor asks him if he believes in creation or evolution.
Why the patient asks?
Well, replies the doctor, if you believe in creation, we will use the traditional drugs that don’t work any longer. If however you believe in evolution, we will use the newer drugs that work on the mutated strains of TB we see now.
Your call.

11

[QUOTE=Mosier]
We know that humans existed before language likely did. How did Adam and Eve do all that talking to God and each other and their descendants with all of those complex and abstract constructions, if language didn’t exist among the earliest humans?
[/QUOTE]

They believed that Adam and Eve is the first human (homo sapiens) and already know the language among all other things, and one cannot prove if the languages didn’t exist with the first homo sapiens ..

12

[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]
Greetings OffLimit and welcome to the Straight Dope!

I would try the National Center for Science Education, which pushes the teaching of evolution in US High Schools. Perhaps their experience with US Christian Fundamentalist concerns would be helpful.

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/7956_12_tips_for_testifying_at_scho_3_19_2001.asp

http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp

After looking over their website, you could even email them – they may be able to put you in touch with those who practice Islam but accept evolution.
[/QUOTE]

They will say its an anti-Islamic propaganda and satanic website …
The one who pratice Islam and accept evolution (Liberals Islams) is considers infidels and non-believers by them …
Liberals Islams and “real” Islams have many disputes in here too …

13

The Index To Creationist Claims can sometimes be useful - not in the sense of being a ‘Handy, dandy creationism refuter’ - you shouldn’t just parrot the answers there without understanding them - but it is useful in showing that Creationism doesn’t have anything fresh on the menu.

As I understand it, many Muslim creationist documents are just copies of the fundie Christian ones, hastily edited for any mention of Jesus, etc.

14

[QUOTE=OffLimit]
So help me guys, fight the ignorance, in my country, how to make them believe evolotions does happen …
Since it harder than i thought …
FYI : they use their arguments mainly from www.harunyahya.com.
[/QUOTE]

At the outset, I feel it’s futile for you to make any attempt to convince members of a forum where a belief that evolution is false forms part of a rock solid policy.

If the educational system of Indonesia permits the teaching of creationist doctrines of the type described in the Link then the problem lies at the high level of government where decisions are made as to what can and can not be taught in schools. If you cannot change that policy or assist those who might succeed in influencing or changing its existing direction then there is nothing you can do in any practical sense.

I would not recommend using any information from western sources as many of these concentrate on mocking type arguments. This would not go down well with the believers who control and participate on the forums of the kind that banned you.

The only strategy I can suggest for you use and not to get banned is to provide examples of Muslim controlled countries that allow the teaching of evolution within the school syllabus and to provide links to examples of the stuff they teach with a “what do you make of that?” kind of approach. Anything more than that would probably get you banned, so you’d be pretty restricted as to what you can present. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to find anything particularly useful about this on the net.

As for examples of Muslim controlled countries that permit the teaching of evolution rather than creationism, I cannot help you on that. Off hand, I don’t know of a single one, other than Turkey, which permits it at the university level only, or so I’ve heard. Some Muslim countries, such as Sudan, even have the death penalty for teaching evolutionary theory.

Good luck with your mission, should you decide to accept it :smiley:

15

There’s an old saying along the lines of, “You cannot argue someone out of a position that they haven’t argued themselves into.” So, if they’re creationists, ask why they’re creationists. If they say, “Because the holy text says so” then you can ask them to cite the passages. Next, ask if those passages are to be taken literally or as parables or metaphors. For example, if you don’t take Genesis literally, the creation myth is quite accurate - Let There Be Light = Big Bang and ignition of sun, day / night = formation of solar system, parting of heavens from water = formation of initial seas, and so on.

Another approach cold be the engineering efficiency approach: "Do you really think that God would design every little thing? All those millions of species of bug through to every one of the trillions of stars? That’s an awful lot of work, isn’t it? Wouldn’t it be much more sensible to simply set the initial parameters of the universe to end up with what you want? And if it takes 15 billion years, so what? You’re patient and infinite.

16

It is my understandind that the Koran is not to be taken literally, that it must be interpreted with the help of the Hadith.

OffLimit, search if you can through the Hadith, for ones that say you should learn science, and apply it to your life. See if you can find Hadith that the believers will use against you, and prepare for it.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Your best bet is not to show them webpages, but learn from the webpages and tell them yourself.

17

[QUOTE=OffLimit]
Haha already been there, and the www.skeptically.org, the problem continues because they believe that the web is only west propaganda to make Islam a bad name, wikipedia also no objective by their point of view (if wikipedia not objective, i dont know what is …)
And also the problem is so small prove about postive mutations (red sickle cell and ?)
i have been proving many statements of the book false, but still u cannot prove that adam and eve is a false theory (or can u ?)
If there are any Islams that have no problem with evolution, they would called it Liberals Islams, with their point of view, liberals Islams same as the devils himself …
How bout the Christians in US, adam and eve is now consider a fairytale ? or still believe by a majorities as a true story ?
[/QUOTE]

I’ll look up the latest poll numbers, but a majority or close to majority think humans were specially created. I haven’t seen one addressing Adam and Eve specifically.

I’ve got a couple of suggestions. First, when talking about evolution to a creationist, ask him what he thinks evolution says. They often don’t really know, and think evolution claims stuff like a cat turning into a dog or something. That will help you get on the same page.
Second, you need to find out how much science they accept. You might have seen the data on genetic Adam and genetic Eve - two people, who lived at very different times, who are ancestors to all of us. But that requires them accepting and understanding more than I bet is likely.

Here is a purely religious argument - use it at your own risk. The fossil record, found in the earth, strongly supports an old earth and evolution. (If fossils were deposited by the flood they wouldn’t be in the order they’re in.) Who created the Earth? God. Who put the fossils there? God. Are the creationists calling God a liar, who put the fossils in the earth to tell an incorrect story? Are they saying God could not cause us to come about through evolution? Lots of people feel they can interpret Genesis as a version of the creation story told in a way to emphasize the important parts, and told in a way its readers can understand.

I don’t believe in any of this myself, but maybe you can spin it so that you are more of a believer than they are.

Finally, would pointing out lies and stupidities in the link you gave help? How many would you have to show before they started to doubt. There are a few a page. For instance, before the one I mentioned, it said Darwin pointed out weaknesses. Sometimes. like the eye, that was done just before he demolished the problem with evidence. Sometimes, like with the fossil record, he made a prediction of what should be found if his theory were true, a prediction that has come true big time. Anyhow, it would be easy to make a list refuting specific claims.

18

Why do people have a need to argue with religeous fanatics? You are never going to change their opinion with a logical, reasoned argument because their belief is based on faith, not reason. Stop wasting your time.

That’s a major reason I don’t choose to live in most of the southern US. I have no desire to be around people who make decisions and opinions because “Jesus this” and “God that”.

19

This is hilarious because…guess who this reminds us of?

Some Christians don’t but many still do. It’s interesting that conservative Christians and conservative Muslims are sharply at odds with each other, and yet the world view that begins with Adam and Eve forms the basis of both their political identities and the divide between them and the liberals within their respective societies. And yet the liberals are also being smeared for supposedly being allied with–our fellow adam-and-eve-believers over there.

OffLimit, do the Muslim creationists in question also believe the story of Noah’s Ark? All the things we’ve learned about the world in the past few centuries add up to make the idea that all terrestrial life was wiped out and then repopulated from a single boatload just a few millennia ago is quite impossible. Also impossible is the idea that all geologic formations on Earth were formed by a single flood event.

Stress that point, then talk about how the the rock strata is very complex and as such, it tells a story. It’s a much grander story than any fairly tale, but much of the story is rather boring. True stories often are, while made-up stories have a small number of characters, dramatic events, and moral lessons.

The makeup of any given layer of sedimentary rock tells us a lot about what the environment was like when it was at the surface. If a different rock layer is sitting on top of it, that means at some point in the past, conditions changed–perhaps geologic forces gradually pushed the sea floor above the surface–and a different environment took over.

Geologists are able to go into a lot of detail in telling this story of natural history because they’ve studied enough of the Earth to put all the pieces together. It is unfair to dismiss their findings simply because it is inconvenient to what you’d rather believe.

Try that line of reasoning. And try to anticipate what their counter-arguments will be so you can pounce with you own rejoinder. Don’t try to get them to change their minds directly, rather, usher their arguments onto a collision course with difficult-to-deny scientific facts. They’ll be forced to make up increasingly absurd explanations, and once they do, calmly inform them that it’s not reasonable for them to make such a claim and expect you to accept it.

20

[QUOTE=OffLimit]
How to make a creationist become evolutionist
[/QUOTE]

Torture works.

Well, actually, it usually doesn’t. But don’t let that stop you! :slight_smile: