There are rules here about threatening people, lekatt. Better tone it down.
He’s gonna have to. I flipped a quarter and watched it land very carefully. It almost always lands on its edge.
…it doesnt stay on its edge, but first contact to the surface is the edge. Theres nothing in DanielWithrow’s bet that said anything about staying up on edge.
But as a catholic, I would never bet on the existance of God based on the probability of a coin toss because the “possibility” that the coin lands on its edge (and stays up) does exist. That i cannot produce that possibility in real life is immaterial. It is possible for the coin to land on its edge and stay up. I believe that and thats enuf for me.
Considering that you can replicate a near-death experience with certain drugs that temporarily starve the brain of oxygen, I wonder why anyone would consider a near-death experience to be any kind of evidence for what happens to you after you die.
Good catch, slayer – Change it to “come to rest on its edge”? At any rate, I’d mock any believer of a non-trickster God who resorted to such trickery in order to get my soul. Mock, mock, mock!
Apos, what you’re describing sounds to me like brainwashing and intentional self-delusion. My doubts are part of my mental process: if I ignore them, then I’m ignoring part of my internal dialogue, and I’m ignring evidence.
I’m not sure I’d be capable of doing that: my brain doesn’t shut up on command, and if I tried to ignore my doubts about God, I’d stop trusting myself to form coherent conclusions.
So if I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting that you can brainwash yourself into believing in God, but not into believing the coin will come to rest on its edge?
Daniel
I’m not a believer, but I can tell you from experience that you aren’t going to get a satisfying answer to that question. It has been my observation that belief precedes the reason for the belief. It’s a Catch-22: if you already believe, you will interpret events as supporting your belief. If you don’t already believe, you won’t see any evidence for belief. Believers are either indoctrinated when they are young, or develop an emotional attachment to religion later in life, or experience a catharsis that triggers belief. You’ll notice that many, many “born-again” people will point out that they hit rock-bottom in their life before they were born again. That’s the emotional cathartic event that triggered them to say “O.K., I’m going to try believing”. (Or in Lekatt’s case, the cathartic event was a near-death experience.) If their life gets better, or even if they just feel better, they will tend to attribute it to the belief, which reinforces it. But how often do you hear “I was a non-believer, and my life was wonderful, then I decided to start believing”. Almost never, right?
Nobody can explain to you how to reason your way to belief, because nobody got there that way.
Didn’t Bertrand Russell go from atheism back to Catholicism towards the end of his life?
Nobody can make you believe in God. Except, perhaps, God himself, and usually he gives you the option; that’s what free will is for. If you want to put some effort into finding to your own satisfation whether or not there is a God, you can try:
Studying scripture. Put some effort into it. Ask people questions. Possibly find someone whose job it is to help you find answers. You may want to study different sects, since they often have different opinions.
Being willing to change your life for this issue. God can ask a lot, and if you aren’t willing to listen and do what he asks of you, why should he tell you anything in the first place?
Praying (Hey, God, are you there? I’d like to know, please. Is the Bible/Koran/Book of Mormon true? All of it, or just bits?) Answers can come in a lot of different ways. Give yourself the opportunity to hear them.
Acting as if you want to obey the commandments. Be kind, be loving, be truthful, share your possessions. And so on. See what comes of it.
Some people seem to get answers more easily than others. I don’t know why that is. I’ve known people who suddenly clicked, and others who spent months searching.
I do not believe in God. Unless there is something I am missing I have no belief of a higher power.
I do not feel guilty about my disbelief, but at the same time I would feel guilty if I did not explore all of my options when it came to religion. If all I ever believed, experienced, or learned about was athiesm, then I would consider myself ignorant. I’mma growing up right now and trying to learn about the world and the people in it and this is something that I have a lot of interest in.
I guess because of that, in a way I am questioning if what I believe is true. I believe it is true, but I am open and I want to learn.
I do not really have a religious background. My parents raised me to make decisions about religion for myself so I came to this reasonging by myself.
[QUOTE]
- Originally posted by panache45 *
** Why on earth are you trying to believe in something that you don’t believe in? If someone told you there are little green men hopping around on pogo sticks on the moon, would you believe it? Would you feel bad about not believing it - bad enough to try to believe it? And how would you go about believing in these little green men? The only way is to separate your brain from reality, like billions of people, including your friend, have already done. Any psychotic can claim “certainty.” That doesn’t make him right. **
I am not trying to make myself believe. I do not necessarily want to believe. I want to learn and explore like I said before. Right now God is equivalent to those little green men you are talking about. I don’t feel bad about not believing in God because there is no God so why would I?
[QUOTE]
- Originally posted by blowero *
** I’m not a believer, but I can tell you from experience that you aren’t going to get a satisfying answer to that question. It has been my observation that belief precedes the reason for the belief. It’s a Catch-22: if you already believe, you will interpret events as supporting your belief. If you don’t already believe, you won’t see any evidence for belief. Believers are either indoctrinated when they are young, or develop an emotional attachment to religion later in life, or experience a catharsis that triggers belief. **
I agree with everything you & Voyager said. I didn’t expect that I would really get a satisfying answer because I don’t think there is one. Thats why I thought I would bring this question here and I am glad I did.
[QUOTE]
- Originally posted by SimonX *
**Christians OR Catholics?? I question your truthfulness. **
My deepest apologies for that. I definitely am still learning and will make mistakes. Thank You for pointing that out, seriously.
I don’t know that much about his life. Can you provide more detail? I wasn’t able to find any reference to it on the internet. Wasn’t he raised as a Catholic, though?
Ugh - denied by hamsters. Hope this isn’t a double or triple-post. [crosses fingers]
No, it doesn’t. I have a friend who had a NDE and she doesn’t believe in god. She experienced what you might call a “sense of place,” but no personal entities.
As to the OP, isn’t faith supposed to be a gift? You can tell your friend that it seems God hasn’t seen fit to give you that particular gift. If God wants you to believe, the ball is in his/her/its court.
No, it doesn’t. I have a friend who had a NDE and she doesn’t believe in god. She experienced what you might call a “sense of place,” but no personal entities.
As to the OP, isn’t faith supposed to be a gift? You can tell your friend that it seems God hasn’t seen fit to give you that particular gift. If God wants you to believe, the ball is in his/her/its court.
Tell me something. How do you know that most of the Gold in the USA is in Fort knox? People tell you but how do they know? It might just all be a great big lie. Some saw pictures but not all of the gold is in those pictures and how do you even know thats real gold?
If they let you in as far as the lobby in Fort Knox, will that work?
God, Almighty in Heaven, I am just full of metaphors today. Thy will be done. :rolleyes:
Suppose You go on to a basketball court and yell loudly and repeatedly, “I’m Open! I’m Open! Gimme the ball!!” What are the chances you will get the ball?
none I would say. First of all, youre the only one on the court and there is no ball. Does the game exist? Of course it does, thats why theres a court. Come to the court when where others are playing. Watch how they play, get into the game, enjoy the feeling of being in the game, then ask to join. They ask you, do you know how to play. You say no. The good ones will let you join anyway and teach you as you play. The better ones will ask all those who want to learn how to play to come with them and they will teach them the basics.
You cannot be open to God and not actively seek God. To accept Jesus in your heart you must first listen to his teachings, believe in what he has to say, know that what he says is the truth and it is good. If you believe that what Jesus says is true and good, then believeing in God would not be so hard a step. Being open minded doesnt mean being gullible. Question everything until you are satisfied. If you cannot find the answers that you seek, then find better people to question. Seek and ye shall find.
I like that one as much as I like:
God doesn’t believe in atheists.
Mottpot- that is a great questioin.
A two-year-old boy was once staring at a heater, fascinated by its bright orange glow. His father saw him and warned, “Don’t touch that heater, son. It may look pretty, but it’s hot.” The little boy believed him, and moved away from the heater. Some time later, after his father had left the room, the boy thought, “I wonder if it really is hot.” He then reached out to touch it and see for himself. The second his flesh burned, he stopped believing it was hot; he now knew it was hot! He had moved out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience. Christians believed in God’s existence before their conversion. However, when they obeyed the Word of God, turned from their sins, and embraced Jesus Christ, they stopped merely believing. The moment they reached out and touched the heater bar of God’s mercy, they moved out of belief into the realm of experience. This experience is so radical, Jesus referred to it as being “born again.” The Bible says that those who don’t know God are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; 4:18). We are born with physical life, but not spiritual life. Picture unbelievers as corpses walking around who, by repenting and placing their faith in Christ, receive His very life. There is a radical difference between a corpse and a living, breathing human, just as there is when sinners pass from spiritual death to life. The apostle Paul said if you are “in Christ,” you are a brand new creature. Those who now have God’s Spirit living in them will love what He loves and desire to do His will; they will have a hunger for His Word, a love for other believers, and a burden for the lost. The Holy Spirit also confirms in their spirit that they are now children of God. Those who believe on the name of the Son of God can know that they have eternal life. Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, “My speech and my preaching were not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God” . What Paul was saying was, “I deliberately didn’t talk you into your faith, but I let God’s power transform you.” He didn’t reach them through an intellectual assent, but through the realm of personal experience. Suppose two people—a heater manufacturer and a skin specialist—walked into the room just after that child had burned his hand on the heater. Both assured the boy that he couldn’t possibly have been burned. But all the experts, theories, and arguments in the world will not dissuade that boy, because of his experience. Those who have been transformed by God’s power need never fear arguments, because the man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument. “For our gospel came not to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance . . .”
How to make an atheist believe?
My Christian high school girlfriend asked me to read the New Testament to understand her beliefs. I did, and found that they seemed to be written from the same semi-euphoric mindset I had experienced once before, but had attributed to depression.
Right there, after years of atheist upbringing by ex-Mormon and ex-Christian Scientist parents, who taught me to treat anyone who believed in God as an idiot (including my devout friends and relatives), I convinced myself I believed, especially since my version of the Bible had a footnote at the end of each gospel saying the sections where Jesus comes back to life were from less ancient and less reliable sources of translation. My new Christian friends convinced me that was the whole point, but I felt like I had taken important things from the Bible without the resurrection stuff.
A year and a half later, I formally quit the Christians. Just too many unanswered questions, with a lot of mystical crap confusing the issue of how to live a good life. I just couldn’t bring myself to the level of willful ignorance that belief seemed to require.
Religion is one of those things that you are usually exposed to at a very young age, and becomes a part of your unquestioned view of the world. When you get exposed to reality, and people who believe differently, it’s extremely difficult to observe the situation dispassionately.
Your friend will probably never accept your atheism, so sure is he in his beliefs. You may wish to ask yourself if you wish to continue to associate with someone so intolerant, who claims to know proofless answers to the great questions of life.
So let me understand. You were religious, but didn’t believe in Jesus. So did you call yourself “Christian”? I think people misuse the term “religion” as much as they misuse “Christian”.
Wow, that’s a load. But I guess you have the disclaimer when you say usually. Sorry, I spent most my life as an unbeliever.
Yes, it’s always best to show tolerance by being intolerant of anyone who doesn’t agree with you.
I wish I could go back and change my tone. Sorry about it. I shouldn’t have said it’s a load, and if I could change it I would. I think I need to go have a nap.
I am curious about that statement. Never in my mind have I considered not associating with this person because of his beliefs. I am almost positive he will never accept athiesm, but he accepts me as a friend and accepts that I am an athiest. How could he accept anything different? I wouldn’t go so far as to call him intolerant. If he was, I don’t believe we would be having these conversations. When I think of some one who is intolerant, I certainly don’t think about having an educated discussion about my beliefs with them. He is willing to listen to me and my beliefs and I honestly think he sees why I feel the way I do, but can’t find a way to make me believe.
I have a friend who I believe is an intolerant athiest. She is also good friends with this person, but you will never see them having a conversation about religion. This is because she will always offer the same argument. “You are an idiot to believe what you do. I am right and you are wrong.” Thats intolerance.
I am actually very happy to have this person in my life so that I can learn about his views and marvel at how different they are from mine.
I must say, Mottpot that from the OP to this last one, I truly believe that God is already in you. You just dont believe yet. I hope and pray you find the answers you seek.
Mottpot, an atheist checking in here. Maybe what you should do is read up on the history of religious beliefs, not just christian, but a variety of them, and look at what people on all sides have said. You may decide there’s something there and you may decide it’s all just a big hot water bottle. Either way, you might want to try to get “unbiased” books on religion. I realize it’s difficult, that’s why I used the quotes.
In which case, God doesn’t believe in something for which there is a lot more evidence than there is for God. Hmph! Some omniscient deity.