Belief is a function of the mind that is seperate to our choice making ability. We can choose to do things, we can’t choose to believe things. We either do or we don’t.
You can only happen to believe in something. You can’t choose to. If you do you are lying to yourself.
I disagree.
We chose to accept what facts we want to believe in. We chose ignore others we don’t want to believe in.
Let’s take Susy and John. Susy and John have been dating for about two years. Nancy, a friend of Susy pulls Susy aside and tells her that John has been cheating on her. Susy’s mind does not believe for her. She choses herself whether she will believe Nancy or not. She will weight what she knows with what she feels and make a conscious desicion.
All our beliefs are based on choices we’ve made, whether we realize them or not. I realize that a lot of religious people feel they had no choice but to believe in God based on experiences they’ve had, but I’ve been there and I’ve seen how there still is a choice involved on some level, even if it is subconscious.
damn I am running out of time. will continue this discussion at home.
In your analogy Susy is deluding herself by choosing one possibility or the other until she can get proof.
I still think choosing to believe anything (on a conscious level) is invalid, real beliefs are powerful and beyond choice. If we don’t know something then I think it is closed-minded to choose to believe it or disbelieve it. and if we DO know something then we have no choice but to believe it, belief of it just happens.
While I agree that beliefs can’t be chosen on a conscious level like entrees on a menu that doesn’t mean they completely escape reasoning. You mention that once we know something there is no choice and that’s true for things like “I own a Ford” or “the atomic weight of X is Y” but those things are objectively provable. We cannot in the same way “prove” that “Jesus is the son of God” or “my ex is a deplorable person.” Obviously we can change what we believe, even very strong beliefs. I no longer identify myself as Christian and at one time I was very in love with my ex. Beliefs might “just happen” but thankfully we can do something about that.
I have to say, you’ve been starting some excellent threads lately Lobsang, with very interesting and thought-provoking questions; keep it up matey.
So…
Were you just not satisfied last time, or what?
I have no choice but to disbelieve you.
Regards,
Shodan
Well, here’s what I think.
Everyone has a choice whether to:
Consider a situation rationally;
consider it irrationally;
not consider it; or
combine the above three in varying degrees.
This, in combination with
(a) the extent to which this choice is carried out,
(b) the amount of time over which it is carried out, and
© various environmental/genetic/etc. factors,
determines more or less what one believes. Hence choice affects one’s beliefs, but not directly; you don’t simply choose to believe, e.g., in God, but you choose how you approach the question.
Can’t speak for the OP, but I think the point bears repeating, since so many persist in saying that we choose our beliefs. As I posted in the linked thread (and in some others) we can choose to exert faith–but faith isn’t belief. It’s often a step away from the willing suspension of disbelief that we employ when reading fiction.
I can no more choose to believe in God than to believe in Santa. Evidence could change my beliefs, as could some inexplicable inner experience. Neither would be subject to my choosing.
As for having no choice but to disbelieve, even if it was meant as a joke, I agree. Those who believe something, truly believe it, can’t choose to disbelieve it. Try it–try to believe that Santa is real, or that your shoes don’t exist. Let me know if you succeed.
I’ll concede that we can, to an extent, control the thought processes that lead to belief or disbelief. We can read up on something, learn more about it, and have our beliefs change. This is one of the things that caused me to stop believing, or stop trying to believe, in God. (On preview, I see that rkts has made a similar point.)
If you are talking in terms of religion, you ARE choosing to believe something – absent of any tangible proof – something that you DON’T believe in on other levels, i.e., the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. It makes absolutely no logical sense, and you take it on faith to believe in a supernatural being – against everything life experience and science have taught you. This is a choice.
Lobsang, you are forcing me to call upon language that I generally choose not to use in polite conversation. However, your OP demands it, ergo:
w00t, brotha!
Your OP encompasses many of the basic ideas behind my own philosophies, and as such, is applicable to an extraordinary number of situations. Beliefs are what they are. It is possible for beliefs to be based on misinformation or lack of proper context, but those are changed not as a matter of choice, but as a matter of subconscious deduction once the proper information is processed. In other words, you don’t change your beliefs, your beliefs just change.
You’d be amazed (well, actually you probably wouldn’t, since you brought it up) at the number of arguments this principle renders irrelevant. I’d list specific examples, but any one of them would probably start a flamewar, which I would then have to use the aforementioned principle to extinguish. It’d be a good lesson in practical application, but it’d also be a good trainwreck, and I don’t like to start such things. Besides, I suspect that you know the sort of thing I’m driving at. Anyhow, if I’m not going to go into specifics, I don’t guess there’s any point in continuing. If anybody comes along to argue the point, I’ll gladly defend it, but for now, I’ll just throw in my own two cents to say that I agree.
Wow! Did anyone else notice that Lobsang has a four minute commute?
Posted at 3:40
Next post at 3:44
I mean, I realize that the Ilse of Man ain’t all that big but, damn!, I wish I had a four minute commute! One day I will die just sitting in L.A. traffic!
I am considering moving to the Isle of Man!
(Motivation for OP and that linked op which I forgot about: It would often bug me when I’d see someone say “I chose to believe in [deity]” because it is not logical and not possible in my understanding of what belief is)
It means a lot to get praise from someone as experienced here as you, thanks 
bienville
(I knew it’d take time to think of my reply to ava’s post and I had some work to do before leaving work, but then 4 minutes later I had formed a point to the reply almost by accident and couldn’t resist the reply. Sadly, not owning a car the commute is more like 40 minutes)
Roland Orzabal you put it far better than I could have in your first paragraph.
And I do think I know what you’re driving at in your second.
Ithink it more that we happen to believe certain things as facts, and all others we believe as untruths. I agree that we do not consciously choose which are which. Once we have set upon which are facts, these can change. But not by choice. I think when we accept the other things as facts, and previous facts as untruths, it contrary to our will and can be a disrupting force in our lives. I’m sure many can relate to wanting to hold on to a certain belief in something, or the rightness of a person or thing because losing that belief sets our ordered world on it’s ear. Some people try to pretend that they don’t loose those beliefs, thinking that they have a choice. They can go on acting as if, but they are deluding themselves.
Well, I agree that if you choose to believe something willfully and not examining your belief based on what you experience, you are lying to yourself. However, people are very, very good at lying to themselves.
Just because someone’s belief is based on self-deception doesn’t mean they don’t truly believe it. It may not be a good belief, or perhaps more accurately, a well-thought-out belief, but it is a belief nonetheless. One that will govern choices that person makes. It is no less “real” a belief for being flawed.
Now, I would certainly agree that it is far better to believe something based on careful and objective consideration of all the information available. But we all fall short of that ideal a fair amount of the time.
I disagree. You can decide which evidence to accept and which to ignore, and your decisions may or may not be rational, but you can’t just will yourself to believe something. What if I offered you 10 million dollars to believe in the Tooth Fairy? Assuming you didn’t believe already, you wouldn’t be able to simply start believing. You would certainly have motivation to believe, and you’d probably tell me you believed, but you wouldn’t actually believe.
“Belief” is subject to many, many things. It’s, oxymoronically speaking, the everchanging end result of a great many processes of perception, emotion, reason, etc. Choice plays a big part in many of those processes.
“Belief” may not be subjectible to toggling on and off, but it’s hardly entirely divorced from the mental process of choice.
It’s not a matter of “buying” belief. It’s a matter of willfully ignoring that which has made sense to you in every other aspect of life, and saying, “Gee Whiz! This whole ‘permanent father’ thing is very comforting. I can let myself off the hook for bad behavior just by confessing my sins. I can do pretty much whatever I like and if I believe in this masquerade, I can live for eternity on a cloud!” You don’t believe in all the other made-up stuff, yet you choose to align yourself with god.
(I personally don’t think that most “believers” actually “believe.” I think they say they do to cover their bases. I’m sure a small percentage actually buy it, but certainly not the majority.)
Didn’t say it was. As you say, choice plays a part. That point was made earlier, and I agree. However, the fact remains that one cannot simply “choose” to believe something.
Obviously. That was merely an example of a hypothetical situation where, despite a powerful motivation to change one’s belief, one could not do so.
It’s quite possible that people can make choices that lead to a particular belief, but still, one cannot simply will oneself to believe. The mind is complex - many people believe irrational things, but there is always some sort of justification in their mind for doing so, even if the justification itself is a self-deception.
Well I don’t; I don’t believe in God.