How to start a private school

It sounds like the debate is being focussed in, now, on the secondary level of teaching.

How common is it for someone to get a secondary teaching “degree” without majoring in the subject matter they are teaching? Where I was in undergrad, you could major in secondary education. Your subject matter expertise was covered by some minimum number of classes. Where I am at now, however, education students get the teaching/education thing as a sort of second major, with their major being in the subject matter field that you plan to teach.

What’s the typical model, or is there one? catsix? Anyone else familiar with this stuff?

Since every state (and province) has a different system, this could take awhile.

Here (Ontario) you cannot teach a high school class without a related degree. I suppose it’s possible you could be a fill-in if someone gets sick or something, but English teachers have English degrees, science teachers have science degrees, math teachers have math degrees, etc. The education degree is covered either through concurrent instruction or an extra year or two of university, including co-op placements.

As far as I can find out there is no model. Up until recently education has been up to states. Other than Brown Vs. the Board of Education and related findings, the federal government really hasn’t been part of it. I suspect that most states have somewhat simmilar processes to Wisconsin, but I honestly do not know.

The Department of Public Instruction sets the standards here. There is a list of classes that have to be taken in order to graduate with a certification in a particular area. Every University that wants to offer programs that result in licences has to submit their program to the DPI to get accredited. The certification I got required 34 credits in history and another 12 each in geography and economics. There were a couple of classes that were required that were also social studies that did not contribute to that count. I know that the other programs in the area are pretty similar.

You could be my cousin, who had absolutely no education in any type of civics, government, or political science but was teaching civics in high school anyway. Her degree is in ‘secondary education’.

So is her masters degree.

I understand this frustration firsthand.

One or two classes does not, IMO, constitute enough education in a subject to be teaching that subject at the secondary level.

Where’s Oxymoron? I think the No Child Left Behind Act specifies that in some subjects, teachers must have a specialized subject matter degree.

A score of 650 V + 650 M on the SAT is in the 89th oercentile or roughly only 1 in 10 students. To expect every student to score that high on the SAT is extremely naive and unrealistic. Most students cannot score that high even with a quality education and coaching. To acheive anything close to that goal, you would have to cherry-pick students that are good at standardized tests by requiring an SAT predictive test as part of the admissions criteria. Is that what you really want?

Well, Cranky, good question. I can’t answer that directly, but I can tell you that according to the National Commission on Teaching and America’s Future, over 75% of secondary school teachers hold a college major or college minor in their main teaching field.

Now, that leaves a troubling quarter which warrants concern. But it seems the majority of secondary teachers took more than “one or two classes” in the field where they do their main instruction.

You know, Cranky, you might think about being a little less lazy, in the future, and doing some research before asking a question.

Shagnasty, another important point (if I can add to yours) is that I believe those percentiles are developed on the juniors (rising seniors) who take the test. In recruiting for a secondary school, you’d be testing students younger than that. I’m guessing that fewer even than the 11% would achieve a score of the 1300 specified.

Catsix, I think everyone agrees that one or two classes in the subject area is not adequate, including education programs. Here is a list of requirements needed for certification at one university in your home state of Pennsylvania.

For example, an aspiring English teacher must take a minimum of 42 credits (not one or two classes, 42 credits- approximately 14 classes) worth of English classes as opposed to credits worth of education classes*. Yep, a whole whopping 6 classes spread out over four years.

But in all fairness, English secondary ed majors are also required to do observations and unpaid internships, which IMHO is where the actual teacher education really comes in. They must complete three separate levels of field experience. Level I consists of 20 hours of observation and 10 hours of working with students, all of which the ed major must write up. Level II appears from the description to be a several-week long internship done in conjunction with 7 credits of education classes. Level III is a semester of student teaching, eight weeks at the middle school level and eight weeks at the high school level.

Before an ed major can move on to Level II, he or she must have a 3.0 GPA and pass the PRAXIS I exam, a test of general knowledge and competency in reading, writing, and math. And after Level III, the student must pass the PRAXIS II, a test of his or her knowledge of the subject area. Check out the link to the sample questions, and tell me if someone with little knowledge of literature and language could ace that test.

*34 credits counting the 15-credit student teaching semester.

That was an example. I most assuredly would shoot for higher than the 500/500 that HISD has settled for, probably 600/600 is more realistic.

I will, however, take exception to your statement that “Most students cannot score that high even with a quality education and coaching.” I wasn’t a good student, even when I was in private school. I hated to study. I hated to do classwork of any kind except in a few classes that interested me. I was a C to D student all the time. But I scored 660/680 on my SATs the first time I took them and 700/720 the second time. If I can do it, anyone can do it.

BTW, I apologize for inserting a moot point into the discussion. Somehow I neglected to remember you were talking about SATs as an exit measure, not an entrance measure.

My bad.

The problem is, that ‘aspiring English teacher’ ends up being my cousin, teaching civics and government, not English, and has to have not one lick of learning in government or civics to do it.

Hence my idea that you should not be able to teach a subject that wasn’t your major.

While I find it admirable that you reached a degree of success with which you felt/feel comfortable; and while I realize that you may have been writing that with tongue planted firmly in cheek, I just want to point out that this kind of statement is extremely short-sighted.

That’s a generalization that does not and cannot apply to every student. You might succeed with a lot of students–I’ll grant you that; but for you to assume that because one student can do something, thus every student can repeat that success, means that you’re probably not taking in the many factors which figure into a child’s educational experience.

Despite your best intentions, you cannot control a student’s familial history; her genes; her hormones; her peer relationships; her level of poverty; her diseases; the ways of learning with which she may naturally feel comfortable–and the ways which naturally fail for her. Is she being abused at home; is she getting the right nutrition; is she even mentally capable to handle the challenges she’s facing in school? You–anyone–as a teacher has to adjust to each class of students each year. This isn’t something that can be taught in classes which focused strictly on a particular degree area; this is something you learn from the education classes and from experience.

On top of that, keep in mind that public K-12s have (in most states) to take in every student–with rare exceptions. Private institutions do not, so you at least have a leg-up in that.

True, as what happened with your cousin, teachers are sometimes put in a position to teach classes with which they have negligible education. But it’s a mistake for you or anyone to think that this is standard practice; it happens, yes, but normally (and I know there are exceptions) it’s because of a shortage of funds or qualified teachers; in most cases it’s temporary until a permanent replacement can be found. (Again, there are exceptions.)

Your cousin would not have made any better of an English teacher anyway: as you said, she doesn’t have a certification in English, but a degree in secondary ed. And I wasn’t addressing your point that teachers should teach within the subject area in which they majored. I was addressing your accusation that education majors do not have to learn content.

catsix, where and when did your cousin get her degree? I am curious about the requirements for a generic secondary-ed degree, but I can’t find any schools offering one.

Insisting that teachers have the certification for the subject being taught is one of the provisions of the No Child Left Behind Act. It is one of the better parts of that legislation, unfortunatly it may mean that huge numbers of rural schools will go bankrupt. I am not sure how that can be fixed, but its not like it hasn’t been thought of.

Late 80s in Pennsylvania. Masters was late 90s, also in Pennsylvania.

No they can’t.

I happen to have a copy of the newest copy of Boston magazine in my hand that came yesterday. In it, they rank public and private high schools by several criteria including average SAT score. Out of 140 public high schools only had an averag SAT score above 1200 (v 609 q 616). This was Weston high school in an extremely wealthy suburb where the average median has price is 1.3 million dollars, the population is almost exclusively well educated professionals, and the number of college bound seniors is 90%. That is the average. Even there, many students still score less than 1200. Many of these towns are known for their excellent educational systems by national standards.

Furthermore, the most prestigious private school in the nation, Phillips Andover academy only has an average SAT score of 1349 with some students scoring below 1200. Those students are among the most cherry-picked and tested prior to admission. Do you think a start-up charter school can beat that without pretesting students to find out if they would score safely above that prior to admission?

[Waves hand madly] I’m hear, Dr. Cranky! Pick me pick me!

Gosh, there’s a lot of oversimplifying and, frankly, wrongheaded thinking going on in here, but that’s not surprising because few people outside K-12 education realize how difficult it is. People tend to extrapolate widely from their own experiences (ahem, catsix), which by definition aren’t representative - and dopers as a whole aren’t exactly representative, either.

Now then - a specific question of qualified teachers and No Child Left Behind (NCLB). In general, NCLB requires that teachers become “highly qualified” by the end of the 2005-06 school year. In elementary schools, "highly qualified’ is usually not that big a deal, because having a teaching certificate in elementary education will do the trick. The big problem is secondary schools. In order to be highly qualified, secondary school teachers must hold one of the following credentials in each subject they teach: a college major or equivalent coursework, an advanced degree, specialized certification, or a passing score on a subject-matter exam. (Experienced teachers can get evaluated in lieu of one of these credentials, so in theory if Mrs. Jones has been a successful chemistry teacher for 20 years, but never got a B.S. in chemistry, she can continue in her position.) As an abstract matter, this is laudable, because we know that many teachers are teaching out-of-subject-area, disproportionately in low-income schools and districts. The definition isn’t a perfect solution, though, because it usually only measures teacher inputs - credentials - not teacher outputs, meaning how effective an individual teacher is.

The enormous problem is that we’re already confonting dramatic shortages in many subjects, and NCLB does nothing to address that problem directly. For example, physics. I was at an education law conference in July, where I spoke with several faculty members from Virginia Commonwealth University’s education department. VCU is one of about a dozen Virginia universities offering teacher certification programs. In all of these schools, how many people got teaching certificates in physics in the 2003-04 academic year?

One.

And we’re speaking about a large state, with (on the whole) a pretty decent school system, decent funding, able to attract candidates.

Now, as for catsix: until you demonstrate that you have some understanding of child development, neuroscience, differentiated instruction, or any of the conditions that uniquely affect K-12 education but which by definition are largely absent from classes comprised exclusively of late adolescents and adults, I’d suggest that you adopt a different tone. You have some legitimate points, but you aren’t doing yourself any favors because you seem not to know what you don’t know.

So far, I’m not encouraged by early results from “alternate route” certification programs like Troops to Teachers, NYC Teaching Fellows, etc. In these programs, credentialed professionals without education degrees or teaching certificates are placed in K-12 classrooms. Candidates in these programs are generally deemed “highly qualified” even though they aren’t certified, reflecting Rod Paige’s views - he despises education departments for much the same reasons catsix does.) But it appears that the dropout and burnout rates tend to be even higher than conventional programs. Education degrees may not be worth very much, but they’re still better than nothing - and having good in-field credentials doesn’t seem to compensate.

And a question, now that there’s an SAT score debate going on - why on earth do you think that it appropriate to use a norm-referenced assessment as an exit exam? All a norm-referenced assessment can tell you is how one particular student does compared to another student (and only inexactly at that) - it tells you basically nothing about what either student has actually learned.

I don’t much care what tone you’d rather have me adopt. I don’t think teaching degrees are worth the paper they’re printed on.

They’re not worth nearly as much as knowing your subject. Never have been, never will be.

And you appear not to know much about this one, which means that your opinion isn’t worth very much.

Then your opinion flies well into the face of reality. Millions of students have been well-educated by those who hold the degrees you consider to be worthless. You’re throwing out assertions and accusations without showing us anything other than personal anecdotes to support your claims. Thus far you’ve demonstrated nothing more than ignorance on the subject of K-12 education; your opinion is not well-founded.