[QUOTE=Shayna]
Actually, not so. They do cite the existence of documents stating exactly that. . . (emphasis mine) But those are “dismissed” as “attributable to 1) Inter-Arab conflict on responsibility for the exodus; and 2) A concern on the part of some Palestinians to defend themselves against charges of weakness or cowardice.”
How quaint. Now we can just wave away actual written history and replace it with our own imagination? Oh goody! It’s gonna be fun to see what I can come up with now.
Not to mention, any source that claims that it’s an “official Israeli myth. . . that the Palestinians and Arab States were united in their desire to destroy Israel” should not be taken seriously when it comes to recounting factual history.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe so. My point was that the site stood for the exact opposite proposition than that for which it was cited.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
[If Israel were disarmed, the Arabs would] overrun and kill the Israelis of course. Were you under the impression there is a “good guy” in this ?
[/QUOTE]
I can hardly believe I’m saying this, but I agree with Der Trihs.
What I don’t seem to ever see is an admission on the Israeli’s part that the state was created in a very ham fisted manner, which I gather from what I’ve read in “Justice and Only Justice” by Naim Ateek, a Palestinian Christian pastor. The implications I get from almost all Jews and Israelis are that “we’re here, we have a birthright, it doesn’t matter how it was appropriated, get used to it.” Where are the Israelis appealing to their and other governments to solve the refugee camp problem and give these people the chance for real lives, so that they don’t feel like Israel has taken every last chance they have?
I had a thread recently about whether Israel has a “right” to exist, and the common consensus seemed to be, “Yes, as much as any other nation, which is pretty much only because it manages to be. We’ve all taken land from the original inhabitants. Unfortunately, such is the way of the world.” http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357475&highlight=israel’s
[QUOTE=Cardinal]
I can hardly believe I’m saying this, but I agree with Der Trihs.
What I don’t seem to ever see is an admission on the Israeli’s part that the state was created in a very ham fisted manner, which I gather from what I’ve read in “Justice and Only Justice” by Naim Ateek, a Palestinian Christian pastor. The implications I get from almost all Jews and Israelis are that “we’re here, we have a birthright, it doesn’t matter how it was appropriated, get used to it.” Where are the Israelis appealing to their and other governments to solve the refugee camp problem and give these people the chance for real lives, so that they don’t feel like Israel has taken every last chance they have?
I had a thread recently about whether Israel has a “right” to exist, and the common consensus seemed to be, “Yes, as much as any other nation, which is pretty much only because it manages to be. We’ve all taken land from the original inhabitants. Unfortunately, such is the way of the world.” http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357475&highlight=israel’s
[/QUOTE]
See my previous post.
Most Palistinian organizations do not in fact want a “solution” to the refugee crisis, if such a solution involves resettlement. I know, because Canada offered (and got flack).
The reason is that this would render moot the “right of return” - getting back grandaddy’s fields, and the like.
It is interesting to compare the fates of the Shephardim and the Palistinians. The “Shephardim refugee crisis” doesn’t make the news - ever considered why that could be?
Wow! Some thread this is. And some of you might still believe that Arabs hate you for “your freedoms”…and not for being the ignorant bigots most of you have shown yourselves to be.
Then again, it’s sort of understandable, since you’ve been funding the murderous IDF for quite some time now.
[QUOTE=Shayna]
Not it’s not. It’s not a damn bit different, and had the Palestinians accepted the self-governance they were offered at the time, they’d still be able to say that. It’s not Israel’s fault that the Palestinians were stupid enough to turn the Brits down.
[/QUOTE]
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
I’m talking about times it’s happened in the West Bank. Israel: “Oh, nobody holds a deed to that land.” Palestinian: “Who needed a deed? Everyone around here knew whose land this was.” Israel: “Doesn’t matter - it’s our land now. Looks like a great place for a shiny new settlement.”
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
So you want to fill the Knesset with people who are pretty much * guaranteed* to hate Israel ?
[/quote]
Fill, no. Allow representation, sure. It won’t necessarily be equal respresentation, tragically, but them’s the breaks.
Perhaps you missed the part where I wrote about a decades-long program of education and economic development. As it stands now, anything of value contributed by other nations is simply stolen by their corrupt leaders, benefiting nobody. Israel can gradually build up small-scale infrastructure and give moderates, which do exist and have always existed, an alternative to the alms given by their corrupt leaders and for which they must trade lip service and public demonstrations about how much they hate Israel.
I disagree this would happen and I eagerly await your proposed alternative.
[QUOTE=Malthus]
It may be different, but it is equally irrelevant.
My grand-daddy would remember plowing a field in Romania, were he still alive. So what if he got run out of Romania under threat of death? Should I have a claim to my “ancestral lands” - which I have never seen, and on which probably several generations of new owners are living?
[/quote]
Were your grand-daddy alive, he should have such a claim. Isn’t that how it works in civilized countries - if someone steals something from you, you get to go to court and be made whole?
[QUOTE=RedFury]
Wow! Some thread this is. And some of you might still believe that Arabs hate you for “your freedoms”…and not for being the ignorant bigots most of you have shown yourselves to be.
Then again, it’s sort of understandable, since you’ve been funding the murderous IDF for quite some time now.
Bleat on!
[/QUOTE]
This sort of broad brush attack on other posters does nothing to carry forward the discussion.
Back off.
Everyone Else in the thread also needs to stop expressing the disputes as personal offenses.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
Wow! Some thread this is. And some of you might still believe that Arabs hate you for “your freedoms”…and not for being the ignorant bigots most of you have shown yourselves to be.
[/QUOTE]
And yet you don’t disagree with my characterization of them as “deadenders.”
Because they are. A pathetic culture of negativity, violence, and primitive religion.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
In the past, some neocons lost their security clearances because of “mishandling” of classified information.
[/quote]
And Robert Byrd used to be in the KKK. Does that paint all Democrats as racists?
Wow, that’s quite a level of malfeasance. I’d like to see a cite on it, though.
It wasn’t overnight, AFAIK. And are you serious, that Israel, angry enough, couldn’t pick some targets within range and have them bombed within hours? If Toronto lobbed missles at Washington, I guarantee you that same day there would be Strike Eagles over Toronto.
I’m really asking: what should Israel do? That is the discussion point here. I don’t have any real insights, because if you’re dealing with someone who only wants you dead, being nice doesn’t work. All I can think of is getting a time machine and buying out all the displaced people so they don’t have something to begrudge. Ok, another question, Dopers: Where were the current residents supposed to go in 1948? Were they compensated at all?
I find this hard to believe. I’m a bit of a Nazi-history reader, and I’ve never heard that bombing London indiscriminately was part of the war crimes charges. That would have been incredibly hypocritical, especially after things like the dam busting in the Ruhr valley and the fire bombing of Dresden.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Fill, no. Allow representation, sure. It won’t necessarily be equal respresentation, tragically, but them’s the breaks.
[/quote]
So, conquest and institutialized 2nd class citizenship; yet more reasons to hate Israel.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Perhaps you missed the part where I wrote about a decades-long program of education and economic development.
[/quote]
I can just see the teachers being killed as enemy agents, and bombs and fires destroying anything built for economic aid. It will work as well as it is in Iraq, meaning not at all. You can’t make people like or even not hate you at the point of a gun.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Israel can gradually build up small-scale infrastructure and give moderates, which do exist and have always existed, an alternative to the alms given by their corrupt leaders and for which they must trade lip service and public demonstrations about how much they hate Israel.
[/quote]
Dead moderates, if they are stupid and unethical enough to collaborate with an Israeli conquest.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I disagree this would happen and I eagerly await your proposed alternative.
[/QUOTE]
Hang on until both sides want peace; one side or both effectively annihilates the other; or one or both sides leaves. I see no other possible alternative. Conquest won’t work, unless it ends in genocide or explusion; both of those I consider unacceptable.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
So, conquest and institutialized 2nd class citizenship; yet more reasons to hate Israel.
[/quote]
No more so than the shlubs who complain that the Electoral College under-represents them. In any case, an example of people unified by conquest that didn’t turn into hellholes, I offer up Quebec, which has Federal representation, had their culture protected by law, and despite having our share of loudmouths and miscreants and poutine-eaters, is a pretty nice place.
So teachers and their students will be murdered wholesale? If that’s how you feel about the Arabs in the area, I don’t see how you could come up with any idea.
I propose this is a sign that you’ve simply given the situation up as hopeless. Good for you; that’ll help a lot. What mechanism do you see is likely to cause both sides to want peace? As a compromise, perhaps out-and-out conquest isn’t necessary. Maybe just building the schools in or near Palestinian areas and offering free education to girls will help, with loan guarantees to women who complete the equivalent of a high-school diploma and/or trade certification.
I’m talking about times it’s happened in the West Bank.
[/QUOTE]
Well then how about you get with the program and talk about what I’ve been talkingabout in everyone of the 6 posts I’ve made to this thread – the period of time covering the inception of Israel as a sovereign State. Post #105 spells it out pretty clearly for you, too. . .
I’ll thank you in advance not to move the goalposts of this line of conversation, at least as far as my participation in it goes. I have no desire to discuss an aspect of the dispute that I heretofore have not posted a single word about in this thread.
[QUOTE=Shayna]
Well then how about you get with the program and talk about what I’ve been talkingabout in everyone of the 6 posts I’ve made to this thread – the period of time covering the inception of Israel as a sovereign State. Post #105 spells it out pretty clearly for you, too. . . I’ll thank you in advance not to move the goalposts of this line of conversation, at least as far as my participation in it goes. I have no desire to discuss an aspect of the dispute that I heretofore have not posted a single word about in this thread.
[/QUOTE]
The topic of the thread isn’t specific to Israel’s creation. If a post of mine isn’t responding to a post of yours, I don’t think you can object if I get off your topic.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
So teachers and their students will be murdered wholesale? If that’s how you feel about the Arabs in the area, I don’t see how you could come up with any idea.
[/quote]
That’s how I regard people. People do not like being conquered, and any “teachers” will be regarded as just that; “teachers” with quotation marks, teachers in name only. What they will be regarded as are propagandists, corrupters of the children and agents of the enemy. The students will likely be regarded as corrupted or collaborators, assuming they don’t kill the teachers themselves. That’s the conclusion I come to after watching Iraq, where Iraqis who work for us often don’t even dare tell their own families they do, for fear of being killed for it. Cooperation with a conquerer is dangerous.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I propose this is a sign that you’ve simply given the situation up as hopeless.
[/quote]
No, I simply believe that you can’t force peace on anyone; at best you get a temporary illusion, like the “peaceful coexistence” between the various factions in Yugoslavia, which vanished the moment the force was remove. I doubt Israel can manage even that much. There will be peace when both sides honestly both want it, not before. Certainly not when both sides are spoiling for a fight and are willing to use any excues for a fight; as long as they have that attitude, any “peace process” is held hostage to any lone lunatic or terrorist group who wants to provoke the other side.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
What mechanism do you see is likely to cause both sides to want peace?
[/quote]
Either sheer exhaustion or they’ll both wake up and realize that all they are doing is hurting themselves.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
As a compromise, perhaps out-and-out conquest isn’t necessary. Maybe just building the schools in or near Palestinian areas and offering free education to girls will help, with loan guarantees to women who complete the equivalent of a high-school diploma and/or trade certification.
[/QUOTE]
That might help, but I doubt such women would be able to return without getting killed by one of the fundie factions.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Either sheer exhaustion or they’ll both wake up and realize that all they are doing is hurting themselves.
[/quote]
How is that going to happen when a new crop of Palestinian children is born every 15 or so years? By the time an older Palestinian is “exhausted”, there are five youths to take his place. Cutting the birthrate will slow this down, and evidence shows that educating and empowering women is the best approach (or at least one that doesn’t involve wholesale slaughter).
If that does happen, with any luck it won’t leave the slightest doubt in anyone’s mind who the real problem is. Well, other than hardcore Jew-haters, of course.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
How is that going to happen when a new crop of Palestinian children is born every 15 or so years? By the time an older Palestinian is “exhausted”, there are five youths to take his place. Cutting the birthrate will slow this down, and evidence shows that educating and empowering women is the best approach (or at least one that doesn’t involve wholesale slaughter).
If that does happen, with any luck it won’t leave the slightest doubt in anyone’s mind who the real problem is. Well, other than hardcore Jew-haters, of course.
[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t wanting to essentially depopulate a specific ethnic/religous group, non-violently if possible, really make someone a hardcore hater of that ethnic/religous group? It seems like Israel has plenty of hardcore haters supporting them just as the other sides do.
Yeah, like that’s gonna happen! It’s a thread on Israel, dude! Don’t set the bar too high! 