How to use apostrophes, for fuck's sake - redux

[SiXSwordS]

@Q.E.D

“That’s rather small for a pie,” …

that’s what she said!

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Sigmagirl

Disagree; I’m with Bosstone. They all look perfectly correct.

They are correct; it’s just a style difference. The prevailing style in British English seems to be that single letters, abbreviations and years are all pluralised with an apostrophe. See here, for instance. (ETA: actually, reading closely, this seems to contradict my claim with some of the cases.)

I can’t even describe how wrong “Ms” as a plural for “M” looks to my eyes.

[amarone]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

See here, for instance. (ETA: actually, reading closely, this seems to contradict my claim with some of the cases.)

I can’t even describe how wrong “Ms” as a plural for “M” looks to my eyes.

And yet that is one of the cases where your own cite proves you wrong:

An apostrophe is used in plurals in the following very special cases:

in the plurals of single letters:
There are only three s’s in `Christmases’.
Mind your p’s and q’s.
(Even here, the capital letter would not need the apostrophe.)

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

Yeah, as I clearly stated in the post you quoted, after I read the page more closely, they disagree, but the Times style guide disagrees with them, too, and the Guardian style dictates “s’s” should never be used, in favour of “Ss”. As I said, IMO it’s becoming more common to pluralise years, single letters and acronyms with an apostrophe, and certainly “Ms” looks terrible to my eyes.

[jjimm]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

As I said, IMO it’s becoming more common to pluralise years, single letters and acronyms with an apostrophe, and certainly “Ms” looks terrible to my eyes.

I said in my original (now lost) “How to use apostrophes…” Pit rant, in my opinion it’s the stylistic prescription of apostrophes in very occasional, exceptional plurals of abbreviations that causes much of the confusion, so I eschew the practice. “Ms” therefore looks good to me.

[Monty]

At the moment, I’m just happy nobody on this board, to my knowledge, has been using ` for the apostrophe. Is it really all that difficult to look around the keyboard and find the correct symbol?

[Nancarrow]

@DrDeth

Yes, and each reference can (and often does) set it’s own rules. For example- it is “an historic” or “a historic”?

There are no “basic, standard, conventional rules of using punctuation marks in written English.”. There are various guidelines and usages.

This is totally illogical swill. Just because there are differences of opinion regarding correct usage of some aspects of the English language, it does not follow that ‘there are no standard rules’ for any aspects of the English language. There bloody well are rules.

You say “references differ”? Well, you’re perfectly right about “an historic” vs “a historic”. Now, find me even one reference which says that “potatoe’s” is a correct plural. Find me any reference at all that says “you’re” is acceptable as a possessive, or that “your” is a valid contraction of “you are”.

“Some wiggle room for some punctuation” does not equal “no rules for any punctuation”. Christ, it’s not rocket science.

[Hellestal]

@Jurph

DrDeth, get a load of the late David Foster Wallace’s Tense Present. He demolishes your laissez-faire descriptivist argument, slaps around stodgy prescriptivists, and then proceeds to review A Dictionary of American Usage. If you want to skip straight to the part where he beats up your argument, eats its lunch, and steals its girlfriend, skip down to the part where he begins discussing Philip Gove.

The entire essay is worth a read.

That is a terrible essay filled with obvious mistakes, poor reasoning, and retarded conclusions. It is shit on almost every level.

Dude was a good writer, but he had major misconceptions about language.

[VinylTurnip]

@Hellestal

That is a terrible essay filled with obvious mistakes, poor reasoning, and retarded conclusions. It is shit on almost every level.

Dude was a good writer, but he had major misconceptions about language.

I made it through about five of those “arguments” before abandoning hope that the critic had any actual valid objections, rather than a series of caviling (and dubious) points motivated by what seems to be a personal dislike of Wallace. Can someone who actually made it to the end confirm my assessment?

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

I’ve often questioned the legitimacy of additional exclamation marks.

really???

[Hellestal]

@VinylTurnip

I made it through about five of those “arguments” before abandoning hope that the critic had any actual valid objections, rather than a series of caviling (and dubious) points motivated by what seems to be a personal dislike of Wallace. Can someone who actually made it to the end confirm my assessment?

He doesn’t hide his disgust, but the summary of small mistakes is part of the point. DFW’s essay is about the importance of following language rules (among other topics), but in fact he amply demonstrates his own ignorance of these issues along the way. A long list of fuck-ups can easily be seen as petty, but errors are errors. And there is nothing dubious about pointing them out.

@languagehat

I should add, for the benefit of those who consider the above points “nitpicking,” that they are no such thing. I can’t hope to teach a basic course in linguistics in the space of a blog entry; all I can do is point to enough errors that you should be thinking “If the guy makes that many mistakes, how can I trust that he knows what he’s talking about?” It would be one thing if DFW were writing about, say, plumbing and I were picking apart his Latin; that would be nitpicking. But he’s writing about language, and his only claim to your attention is the idea that he knows more about it than you do. The more picky points he brings up, the more important it is that he get them right. Sure, it’s a minor matter that he misuses a capital letter in “Wedgied”—except that the only point of his using it (since nobody else ever has or ever will, unless they foolishly copy it from him) is to make a point of his extreme accuracy in the tiniest of matters… and he gets it wrong.

This isn’t a fabrication of DFW’s motives. If you read the original essay, Tense Present, he explicitly admits the extra care he took while writing about usage. And he still gets it wrong.

I gotta admit, it’s beautifully written, obviously the product of a great mind, just like everything else the man published before he hanged himself. It just also happens to be a giant pile of bullshit. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Monty

At the moment, I’m just happy nobody on this board, to my knowledge, has been using ` for the apostrophe. Is it really all that difficult to look around the keyboard and find the correct symbol?

I never even noticed my keyboard had a key until I read that post. ' is in with the other punctuation; is not.

As far as where the punctuation goes at the end of a quote, I’ve always followed my own 100% logical rule: when the punctuation mark is clearly a part of the quoted speech (or text), it goes inside the quotation marks. Otherwise, it goes outside. This depends on whether or not you know the context, of course.

For example, in the following:

“Really Not All That Bright is awesome”, he said the comma is correctly placed if that’s all he said, but would be replaced by an in-quote period/full stop if he followed up this totally accurate statement. If I don’t know, I leave it outside.

ETA: It’s been ages since I used a non-US keyboard, so maybe ` is placed elsewhere on UK or Australian ones. In the US layout it’s with the tilda (~) on the key below Escape.

[Stratocaster]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

“Really Not All That Bright is awesome”, he said the comma is correctly placed if that’s all he said, but would be replaced by an in-quote period/full stop if he followed up this totally accurate statement. If I don’t know, I leave it outside.

I don’t believe anyone accepts this convention. Brits and Americans alike, and even the “logical quote” guys, leave the punctuation inside when quoting speech. In keeping with the theme of this thread, I’ll just point out that for certain rules, we don’t get to decide for ourselves, no matter how awesome we might be–not if we’d like to be considered in command of the language.

[descamisado]

@Bosstone

This is one rule I’ll happily break, because more often than not it looks strange for single words and short phrases. Example: “I looked up the words ‘rule,’ ‘guide,’ and ‘pony.’”

Someone here mentioned that when talking about words the way you have, it’s also proper to write them in italicized form, i.e., rule, guide, and pony. That would also seem to solve the problem.

[magellan01]

@What_Exit

Not being snarky: If you are going to complain about punctuation and grammar please provide the correct version also as a comparison and therefore a learning tool.

Should it be: Sally crossed the room, “I don’t want any pie, thanks”, she said.

or better yet: Sally crossed the room and said, “I don’t want any pie, thanks.”

The simplest version changed from the original would be: Sally crossed the room. “I don’t want any pie, thanks”, she said.

[Bosstone]

@5-4-Fighting

Someone here mentioned that when talking about words the way you have, it’s also proper to write them in italicized form, i.e., rule, guide, and pony. That would also seem to solve the problem.

True enough.

[Ponderoid]

@magellan01

The simplest version changed from the original would be: Sally crossed the room. “I don’t want any pie, thanks”, she said.

No, see my earlier post in this thread, and follow the links. Corrected:

Sally crossed the room. “I don’t want any pie, thanks,” she said.

*** Ponder

[elucidator]

To he’ll with it! Ill’ use em’ any damned way I please! Whadday gonna do about it’s?

(I’m a wild man, don’t push me!)

[Q.E.D]

Parentheses made you wuss out.

[Liberal]

@DrDeth

And, “who vs whom”?!?

It’s easy. It’s just like “he vs him”. Same same.