How viable is your local “downtown”?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Downtown Honolulu is a dying and dangerous place, especially at night. It’s become exponentially worse since the start of the pandemic. The homeless have taken it over almost completely.

Thirty years ago in graduate school here, I worked the Rubber Room, a needle-exchange project (and distributor of free condoms, hence the name) in downtown. Back then, downtown had a “dangerous cool” vibe, and you could be reasonably certain of leaving there alive. These days, you are literally risking your life being there after dark.

22

My DC suburb, Hyattsville MD, is one of the local hot spots for development and gentrification. My own house though is literally on the wrong side of the tracks. The railroad tracks go right through the middle of town and everything good has or is being built just over the tracks a mile west of me while my side of town is improving somewhat but at a much slower pace.

DC itself doesn’t really have a central downtown, not in that sense. Here, “downtown” means the Mall and the Capitol and monuments. “Nightlife” is mostly found in small isolated pockets in neighborhoods peppered around the city. Adams Morgan, H St, Columbia Heights, Chinatown, the Navy Yard, etc. Generally you just pick a neighborhood and bar hop around those few blocks in a night.

23

Atlanta’s downtown area is where many of our nationally known tourist attractions are located, such as the Georgia Aquarium, World of Coca Cola, CNN Center, the new Mercedes Benz Stadium, the College Football Hall of Fame, the National Center for Civil and Human Rights, and the Georgia State Capitol, as well as the headquarters for some brands you might have heard of, such as Suntrust (who are in the iconic Suntrust Plaza, tallest building in downtown), Southern Company, CNN and the rest of the Turner conglomerate, Georgia-Pacific and Coca Cola. It also contains Georgia State University and the northern border of downtown abuts the Georgia Tech campus. There are also lots of high end hotels, restaurants, and even a killer climate controlled ferris wheel.

I’m going to nominate Atlanta for the “viable” category.

24

That’s me. We live 500m from the streetcar, 2km from the subway, and I’ve got 50 restaurants within a15 minute walk. I grew up much more suburban and couldn’t imagine going back.

25

I live in the Greater Miami Metroblob. Each of the three counties’ core cities have a good sized “downtown-downtown” that was going gangbusters pre-COVID and should recover promptly as it recedes. That’s downtown Miami, downtown Ft. Lauderdale, and downtown West Palm Beach.

Each of the individual 1940s-1970s towns that have slowly expanded into each other to form the modern contiguous undifferentiated suburban blob of 6+ million people used to have their own couple of blocks of “downtown”. Some are still identifiable but shabby & poor, some are retro cute / gentrified, and some are simply gone.

My own town within the blob has the true downtown that was the original crossroads; just a few vintage buildings and eateries in what’s now a less than ideal part of town. Nothing much wrong with it, but nothing much right with it either. It’s too small to be a destination and too close to the poor people to be a hotspot. We have another area in town that’s our tourist and “miracle mile” area. I live there. We have little public transportation worthy of the name, but I’m in the midst of what little there is. That area was doing great pre-COVID, and the early returns are it’ll be a little dog-eared afterwards, but should spring back better than ever.

At least until the ocean rises up to smite the whole thing.


As to this:

I think this is really an important observation no matter which city or town we’re discussing.

The traditional “downtown” had jobs, residential, shops (both necessities and frippery), and restaurants plus entertainment within a walkable radius or via a quick hop on ubiquitous public transportation.

I know of downtowns where the jobs are still there, but between homeless & criminals, people who work there leave for their suburbs ASAP after work; retail and entertainment are long gone, and the few remaining restaurants are Mon-Fri lunch counters only.

Said another way downtowns were a 4-legged stool that might be able to stand for awhile on 3. Real retail is mostly gone from most of them, as is desirable family housing nearby. Condos and apartments for well-paid 20-something DINKs may be nearby, but that’s a small fraction of the working-day populace. Can they stand on just 2-1/2 legs? And what of WFH post-COVID? Will the big downtown office building become passé?

26

A friend that lives (rents) in a near-the-waterfront highrise condo in Toronto tells me that at night the neighboring condo towers show very few units with lights on. This would indicate a lot of unoccupied (but probably sold) units that the owners planned to use for Air B&B type setups, which Covid put (at least temporary) an end to. My friend actually recently negotiated a rent reduction after threatening to move out.

27

It’s a big question here. We’ve had decades of gentrification of formerly industrial districts into “vibrant urban quarters” (and all that) in city centres, but at the same time the online revolution has been hollowing out what we call High Streets in towns and suburbs up and down the land. Covid lockdowns have really accelerated the process, with online shopping now pushing something 40% of retail business, and working from home removing the customers for those hospitality businesses trying to keep going on takeaway business.

There is government funding going into a “Future High Streets” programme, and many people pushing a variety of ideas.

At the same time, the pressurised housing market has led to conversions of offices into flats - often not particularly well, thanks to years of reducing regulation and under-resourcing enforcement.

28

That’s a thriving metropolis compared to our nearest town with a population of 1,457. I drive through town on my way to other places, but seldom stop, other than the post office.

29

Mine would have be the minimum that would serve an Appalachian Trail thru hiker looking to spend a night off trail. A old motel that is cheap, a decaying gas station convenience store that sells limited groceries and makes a great breakfast sandwich, a diner that serves everything, and a pizza joint that is known to rival NYC pizza (the owner comes from Brooklyn), a restaurant/bar in a old wooden that was pretty good building and also a church as some thru hikers look for that and make it a point to attend mass/service - not many but there is still a good number who insist. All within walking distance.

But times have changed, the church is now a dance studio, the motel is now a buddha temple which will be offering some retreats, the diner is now high end and pricy and specializes in smoked meats with a world famous chef, the gas station store is renovated and looks modern. The old restaurant is closed but may reopen as a curry house. Other prospective buyers are looking at the available properties. The only one thing that stayed the same is the pizza joint.

30

There’s definitely an element of this, especially since real estate is such a hot investment in Toronto but I think overall there is a (at least pre-Covid) to live/work downtown. The lack of available spaces at area schools is an indicator that families want to be there.

31

Or just as second homes / investments.

Around here a LOT of units are owned by medium-wealthy South Americans who are just stashing money in the USA. Some become rentals or worse, AirBnBs. But most just sit unoccupied except a few weeks a year.

32

Schenectady’s downtown has been revitalized over the years. They used Proctor’s Theater (an old movie palace with a stage for shows) as a focal point. It brought in people in the evenings and led to restaurants and other businesses setting up (at least, before Covid). I was there a few years ago when I was on jury duty, and the main drag was in pretty good shape.

It helped that the state moved their Lottery Division downtown. Thus people are there during the day and patronize downtown restaurants. There’s also a movie theater and parking is easy (the parking garage in the middle of things is free in the evenings).

Jay Street – just off the main drag – is a pedestrian mall that has a bunch of small shops that are doing fine. There’s also a farmer’s market (outdoors in the summer) that is busy on Sundays.

The casino (not on the main drag, but near enough) has brought in a lot of money, meaning the roads have been upgraded. The old, dingy railroad station has been replaced with a shiny new one reminiscent of the great days of rail travel.

33

Not bragging, just trying to add a data point:

I live in downtown Shanghai.
It’s brilliant: lots of new malls, bars, libraries, artsy architecture, running tracks etc. Safe any time of day. Of course Shanghai is big enough that really it is a collection of lots of centers, but if you had to pick a single one to be the main one, you’d pick Pudong New Area, as it’s certainly the central business district.

In terms of the point about retail, there has been a shift I’d say.
For example, upmarket and uber-famous fashion brands maintain huge, fancy stores but their customers are few, and so they are kinda like an expensive billboard for buying their brand online. Cheaper clothing brands have been squeezed out. New malls are still getting built, but increasingly they are places to eat and drink and do experience stuff like climbing, dancing, painting, VR etc.

34

Downtown San Jose, the “Capitol of Silicon Valley” isn’t all that great. I worked there at a couple locations in the late 70s through the early 90s, before the tech giants moved in. There used to be come cool used bookshops and record stores and there are some good places to eat (sadly La Taqueria closed down years ago). The nightclub scene was decent enough if you’re into that kind of thing.

But besides the occasional event and maybe the Tech Museum, there’s nothing really to do downtown. On the weekends its pretty much deserted except for the people who always seem be hanging out in and around Fountain Alley.

35

Live in a village of around 1000, downtown has two bakeries, two pizza joints, four taverns, grocery store, and two good restaurants. Used to have a cheese shop and butcher but Covid happened.

36

LOL that’s also my downtown! Agreed about the railroad (and general arrangement of roads)

37

Toronto has a fairly vibrant downtown and many local “main streets”. I’m sure, like everywhere, they have suffered due to Covid. Toronto has many people who live downtown and pay a premium to do so - although the high cost of housing is a major cause. Downtown is extremely well served by public transport although many regions of the GTA are not.

Two minor kvetches:

  1. If you want to go to three or four random store types in Toronto (books, groceries, etc.) it can take all afternoon due to traffic and the huge size of the city. One needs to plan. Nice thing about smaller cities is in twenty minutes outside of rush hours you can be anywhere.

  2. Toronto has done some things right (this thread is not about the waterfront). Naturally, smaller cities look to Toronto and other big cities for solutions to their issues. Unfortunately, what works in Toronto due to high population density will be much less likely to work in other places. Designated bus lanes work great in Bogotá. Streetcars are worth keeping in Toronto despite their many drawbacks. Things like bike lanes and parking need local thinking - they should be much increased in parks but perhaps minimized in higher traffic areas - not every city is Copenhagen.

38

I live in Dallas, and in general downtowns in the area are somewhat revitalized, at least as far as the cities themselves have pushed it.

Downtown Dallas had the usual problems that downtown areas had in the 1970s through 1990s- lots of commercial space and some venerable old hotels, but not much else. The city has been putting effort into revitalizing it- we now have a pretty slick farmer’s market, several entertainment venues, bars, restaurants, some nightclubs (mostly in the West End near Dealey Plaza), new fine arts venues, a new natural history museum, etc… The “uptown” area immediately north of downtown has undergone a renaissance in the last 20 years, as has Deep Ellum immediately to the east.

Downtown Fort Worth is pretty cool, with Sundance Square (an area of clubs/bars/restaurants), the Bass Performance Hall and many other places nearby. And it’s very close to the Stockyards and Cultural district (Dickies Arena, Amon Carter museum, Kimbell Art Museum (well worth a visit!) , Will Rogers Auditorium, etc…), so it makes for a fun place to visit.

Other cities in the area are more spotty- some have made effort into revitalizing their downtown areas, and others have not.

Downtown Richardson is less cool; it seems to be a lot of hookah joints, halal barbecue and Indo-Pakistani groceries for the most part. Downtown Plano is neat on 15th for about 3 blocks, where there are some cool restaurants (shout out to Jorg’s Cafe Vienna!), shops and bars. Downtown Frisco is neat, but humongously commercialized. It’s not historic or anything- everything there is less than 20 years old. Downtown Carrollton and downtown Grapevine are cool- there’s some historic stuff, some restaurants, etc…

I couldn’t even tell you where downtown Arlington, Mesquite, Grand Prairie, Irving or Lewisville are- they just don’t seem to have anything noteworthy that I’ve heard of. I know where downtown Garland is, but there’s nothing there. I suppose it’s commercially viable, but it’s not a destination.

39

The “public walking areas” common in British cities - no cars allowed - make sense if there are many attractive anchor stores in the region where one can complete all the tasks they need to do. This idea seems much less popular in North America likely since stores and malls are just so spread out. And these high streets in England are in trouble despite a sensible layout.

40

I live on a farm a couple miles from a New England village of 1200, which is about the same size it was in 1790 (when it was the second biggest town in the northern Connecticut River valley). You can buy a pizza and drink beer at the tavern in the evening, you can eat lunch at the diner/gas station/convenience store – and both of these are run by old ladies who know everyone and everything – and there is a post office, a town hall, a fire station, a church, a grammar school, and some artisan type shops which are the fronts of the artisans’ homes. There is a magnificent 19th century library paneled in marble with a copper cupola, endowed by one of the famous sons. My town is viable in the sense that it is going to continue about like this for the foreseeable future, and although it was much more lively when it was a mill town and provided for most of the needs of its population with four churches and several grocers etc., it is very pleasant this way too.

The Big Box stores are across the river in Hadley, the artisan shoes and used bookstores and concerts are in college-oriented Northampton, and the lumber yard and feed store is in Greenfield, each a moderate-sized town half an hour in a different direction from each other. Boston is two hours away, and I never ever go there.