threemae…please.
I don’t want to speak for the Lord of the Nazgul or anything, but it’s fairly clear to me that he meant MT was a great Catholic in the purest sense of doctrine. Once WRS posited suffering as a Catholic tenet, he measured MT to that yardstick, and found her to be absolutely great in causing and/or continuing suffering.
WRS…my apologies if I mis-read your post.
threemae…way to jump to extremes.
-Cem
Do you understand the difference between criticism of someone who was (supposedly) a “good Catholic” and criticism of Catholicism itself?
I admit I did criticize the idea of glorification of suffering, and I will never stop being critical of that hideous doctrine and the people who preach it.
If you think this attitude rivals that of Jack T. Chick, so be it.
Get real, and when you do, compare ‘The Vatican created the Communist and Nazi parties and is controlled by Satan’ to ‘‘suffering is beautiful’ is a lousy teaching and Mother Teresa didn’t do that much good.’
I dunno… “most evil”? Hmmm… bit hyperbolic? Nah, hyperbolically hyperbolic. What you MAY have here actually is the celeb-woman with whom when you take a step back and look at things with “outsider’s eyes”, you’d run into the greatest disappointment at the discrepancy between image and reality.
As mentioned, she was not premeditatedly malicious, but some of the things she did/preached either did not help or made matters worse. She WAS careless about her company and her ministry was terrible about its finances, but the biggest question to be answered is, by the time the ministry had gone Big Business and started sailing murky watersr, was she a mastermind or a figurehead and if the latter was she a willingly complicit figurehead? I’m still not ready to say that’s been answered to my satisfaction.
As was mentioned earlier, the biggest problem I see with Mother T. is the celebrity-driven “cult” that was built around her “Living Saint” persona while she lived.
I certainly think JP2 jumped the gun with waiving her waiting period, much as Benny is in waiving it with JP2.
BTW, speaking of JP2, under his Papacy (with Joe Ratz as the brains of the outfit, remember?), the whole role of the Devil’s Advocate got stripped down quite a bit. Man really like doing canonizations.
For that matter, what about Archbishop Romero? He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize the same year Mother Teresa won. This is a guy who was up against freaking death squads in El Salvador, who was gunned down while saying Mass (While saying the Eucharist, IIRC). Yet he gets almost no recognition.
“Blessed” is her title. It’s like a step down from sainthood. She’s not a saint yet, so she’s known as “Blessed.” snort
Next she moves up to “Venerable”, then to “Really Fab” whe she goes before a call-in vote. If she wins that she’s upgraded to “Almost Holy”. Finally she gets to be a saint if they can prove six miracles that occur (no sleeves) and she gives really good answers to randomly chosen questions on a Ouija Board. This is established by the sainthood song (which sounded much better in Latin):
I’m just beatified,
Yes I’m only beatified,
and I’m sitting here on Jesus’s left side.
Well it’s a long long journey
to the Vatican City
It’s a long long wait
at least the artwork is pretty
But I know I’ll be a saint someday
Would you please pray that I will?
but today I am still
just beatified.
“For that matter, what about Archbishop Romero? He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize the same year Mother Teresa won.”
And what a speech it was:
http://www.tisv.be/mt/en/nobel.htm
Abortion: The Greatest Threat to World Peace. Ever.
I retract the Chick comparison & opt out of this discussion. Have fun.
Maybe the more accurate thing to say than what I did before was that most seem to agree that she was not a malicious person. To be evil it seems someone has to have malicious intent. How many times have we done things with good intent and caused unintentional harm? Most of the posts seem to say she was not as good as thought with some saying she actually caused harm but it doesn’t seem it was with malicious intent. To compare her to Stalin or Hitler is ridiculous. They maybe used some twisted logic, but they knew when they imprisoned, tortured and killed people they were causing harm. When camps are created solely for extermination it seems it can’t be much more intentional to cause harm which to compare to Mother Theresa in my mind dilutes the meaning of the word evil. I think the reason people tended to give her money is that when she spoke of the people in need of help she spoke with such compassion for these people. If she really didn’t care about them I’d have to say it was pretty good acting, which is possible, but it would have to be a really good one because it just seemed to radiate from her from what I’ve heard. In any case she did help raise people’s awareness of the needs of people in the areas where she worked which is a good thing.
Blessed Mother Teresa was not a good Catholic - from the view of traditional Catholic thought - in that she caused suffering but in that she attempted to teach others to patiently endure their suffering. No one can deny, furthermore, that what she wrote was very inspirational.
I have not seen anyone work so much with and amongst the poor and the suffering or who drew people to work with and amongst the poor and the suffering. I know of one non-Catholic Christian who went to Calcutta and volunteered some time with the Missionaries of Charity and nothing but glowing praises for the mission.
If one has disagreements with traditionalist/faithful Catholicism, then one will certainly have disagreements with what Mother Teresa did and said. But she worked within and for the perspective of Catholicism, and she was very faithful and good in that perspective. She was in and of herself certainly not evil.
And one should pay attention to the name: Missionaries of Charity. It is the duty of missionaries to evangelize the world as well as provide certain charitable services. This is right in line with His Holiness Pope John Paul II’s intentions. Faithful Catholics in the US stress “our Holy Father’s call for a new evangelization” - the Holy father’s encouragement of Catholics to exercise their apostolate in evangelizing Catholics, non-Catholic Christians to Catholicism, non-Christians to Catholic Catholicism, and promoting the values of faithful/traditionalist Catholicism.
If one
In the eyes of faithful Catholics (that is, those who are aligned with the Holy See and the Holy Father), she certainly is a saint. She was not perfect - indeed, in Catholic thought and theology only God can be perfect, and so even saints are imperfect - but she is seen as saintly.
panache45 - I am afraid I disagree with the theory that people are directly responsible for their beliefs. A person’s beliefs are often the result of social conditioning, who one’s authorities (as in, those whom one respects as and listens to as authorities) were, and other circumstances beyond their control. If people began to examine their beliefs and consciously choose what to believe and what not to, there’d be fewer bigots. As it is, people are not going to revise and throw away their entire world-view and everything they learned.
Sampiro - I found your parody of the process of sainthood to be offensive. If you’d like to make fun of the Catholic Church, please start your own thread. If you’d like to discuss sainthood, please start your own thread. As it is, the question asked by js_africanus was sufficiently answered by Guinastasia.
WRS - who wishes people could learn to disagree with respect
I do not know about the *most * evil person in the world, but the fact is she did a great deal of harm in India by setting back the government’s program of birth control and abortion by years.
I’m a little afraid to make this statement here, but I am tired of Catholics and Christians of all flavors trying to convert the world to their beliefs. Why can’t people help without trying to convert?
India *needs * abortion & *needs * birth control and being a good Catholic by following the “no birth-control” policy is no longer being a good human, I’m afraid. the world is already taxed and overpopulated and people need to self-limit their children.
I don’t know anything about the suffering & the money things but that only makes it seem worse.
I’m no debater. I never come in here. But I had to, when I saw this thread…I personally despise Mother Theresa.
If she set the abortion program back by years, then kudos to her!
Whether people acknowledge responsibility for their beliefs doesn’t change the fact that they **are **responsible. Unless a person has been literally brainwashed, he or she has to choose to accept the social conditioning, has to choose to respect some authorities and not others (or no authority). If you choose to put your mind at the mercy of other people, you continue to make that choice every time you obey that authority. And where there is choice, there is responsiblity.
There are plenty of people who really do “throw away their entire world-view” when they realize how many lies thay’ve been taught. And not just individuals, whole societies have done this; that’s how individuals and societies evolve. If you have the free will to believe a given dogma (and you do), you also have the free will to examine that dogma and choose not to believe it.
Meaning no disrespect, I honestly couldn’t care less. I find Mother Teresa and the notion of saints offensive but I’m an adult.
As for never having met any Catholics who’ve been to Calcutta who didn’t return with glowing reviews,
1- How many have you met?
2- You haven’t researched the matter much, have you? How many native Calcuttans (or Kalkota, to be more accurate) have you talked to about her? Are you familiar with the term “confirmation bias”, or have you read what former MC members said about her in Hitchens book or in articles?
Amen. A nation of 1.1 billion people marked by devastating poverty and already dependant on vast foreign aid needs all the people it can get.
Actually, it needs all the **productive **people it can get. What it doesn’t need are more mouths to feed, which is the inevitable result of the so-called “pro-life” (whose?) policies.
Mother Theresa exhorted people to endure their suffering. With all the money she collected, she could have and should have relieved some of that suffering.
They’re holding off until they’re sure he isn’t coming back as a zombie.
So you’re saying that you do not hold bigots responsible for their bigotry? People in the KKK get a pass because they were just raised that way?
Can’t say as I much agree with that.
WeRSauron, may I ask, just curious-are you converting to Catholicism?
I personally found nothing offensive with Sampiro’s little parody-in fact, I found it amusing. It read like something that might be found in the book, Growing Up Catholic. (One of my all time favorites, btw).
SteveG1-not to mention that Mama T never tried to patiently endure her own suffering-she was off to the Mayo Clinic whenever she had health problems!
:mad: