How will people view the Afghanistan and Iraq wars and their veterans?

Ruken:

The before-occurrence risk is low such that risk-reward calculations about preventive measures are justified. AFTER an occurrence happens, the perpetrators must be identified and stopped from causing more occurrences. A specific malicious individual or organization is not some random risk like a shark attack. If he (pronoun used for convenience) bears ill will, and has attempted and succeeded in causing harm, then it is necessary to act against him or else he will plan to cause harm again.

But he wasn’t some stereotype nomadic goat-herd. He was educated and trained in all ways the Western world considers advantageous. And even without his family’s actual financial support, he had connections from that part of his life that he was able to exploit.

A country’s military is charged with protecting its own citizens from acts of foreign aggression. It doesn’t need to limit itself to world-conquest danger levels.

There is nothing irrational about a government using its military to go after a foreign entity that has demonstrated the desire and the ability to harm its citizens.

They exploited multiple loopholes, changing attack strategies every time. The September 11 attacks were hardly the first Al Qaeda action, nor the last. The only thing “one-time” about them was that they happened on actual American soil.

Yeah, we did that. Deposing a nation’s government in order to root out a terrorist group is hardly any help if you leave a power vacuum which almost certainly leads to the worst and most violent elements taking over. It’s a messy situation, but it’s better than sending the message that America will do absolutely nothing against them when they kill American citizens.

Kimstu:

What exactly is “international policing” if not military attacks? If the Taliban were willing to either root out Al Qaeda for America or even to allow America to come in to capture them without actively hindering the effort, perhaps such attacks could have been avoided and the goal accomplished. But that was not the situation. The only way America was getting at Bin Laden and Al Qaeda high command was by forcing the Taliban out of the way.

Yes, that’s true…the strategy of modern terrorists is to hide behind civilian populations such that getting at the terrorists is impossible without civilian casualties. It’s a consequence that America tried to counteract in Afghanistan through their nation-building efforts after the fact, and it’s not entirely successful. But it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation, and ultimately one or the other has to be chosen.

First of all, just because the leaders of the movement are happy to convince their followers to sacrifice their lives doesn’t mean that they themselves are down with the suicide/martyrdom idea. Secondly, those who have bought into martyrdom as an ideal want to go down accomplishing their goal, not dying just for their enemies to win. And thirdly, there could be other hostile entities whose agendas are not so ideologically driven and who may have been emboldened by an unanswered attack but cowed by one that has consequences.

Are you saying that in order to show China that we are not weak, we needed to answer 9/11 by killing a whole bunch of people that had nothing to do with it? I guess China now realizes that if they attack us we’ll bomb the shit out of Thailand for 20 years. Take that Putin!

l0k1:

The people we targeted in Afghanistan absolutely did have everything to do with 9/11.

We sure didn’t target them very well. Everytime we hit the target we killed a thousand innocent bystanders and destroyed what little civilian infrastructure existed. Maybe we should invest in better scopes.

That’s called collateral damage, and it happens in every war. With terrorists who hide among the general population, there’s a higher ratio of that than with old-style wars involving standing armies facing one another in open battlefields. Doesn’t change the fact that Al Qaeda and the Taliban government in Afghanistan who supported them were the correct and justified entities to attack in the aftermath of 9/11.

After the Jspanese attacked Pearl Harbor, how many Afghans did we kill?

What the heck kind of question is that? Of course we didn’t kill any Afghans over Pearl Harbor. But certainly a lot of civilians, not only Japanese but also Filipino, Pacific Islander (of varied nations) and whatever other places battles between the US and Japan occurred were killed, simply because they were in the way of the battles that needed to be fought to stop Japanese aggression, and not because they were actual members of the army that attacked Pearl Harbor. And we also took on battles against Japan’s allies because of the attack from Japan, which didn’t include Afghanistan, but included Germany and Italy and would cause civilian casualties all over Europe and North Africa.

Re: ObL

Just to be clear he didn’t have access to all of his family’s resources( which were staggering ), but he did inherit a tiny fraction of them. A tiny fraction that purportedly ran well over $10 million. For that matter it is claimed he left $29 million( stashed in Sudan )to al Qaeda in his will. He was not a pauper and the fact that he was wealthy was a big part of how he became so important in creating al Qaeda in the first place.

Not that MHO is particularly important, but I actually do have very different opinions about Afghanistan versus Iraq. I had particular no issue with Bush jr. retaliating against the Taliban after they insisted on sheltering ObL. Shelter a mass-murdering terrorist, reap the whirlwind. How exactly that played out I might have more quibbles with. But the intent to respond forcefully in some manner did not bother me.

Contrariwise the Iraq venture was sheer fucking idiocy from the get go. In just about every facet from conception, to justification, to execution.

None of which, of course, reflects on the soldiers that were just doing their jobs.

“Patriotically Correct.” I’m stealing that. Those types are always “patriots” with a capital P who somehow NEVER read the Constitution.

This one-size-fits-all hero worship actually dehumanizes troops and shortchanges all of us. There’s guys who folded cots; there’s women who were in combat. There’s men who befriended and respected Iraqis and Afghanis; then there’s the likes of Lynndie England and too many Gitmo interrogators, who tortured people just like Saddam Hussein did. Worse, even, because we should know better, if we actually read our own Constitution. There’s been several cases of female interrogators at Gitmo taunting captives with what they claimed to be menstrual blood or semen-stained clothing.

We need a word for all the Sprint clerks and kindergaarten teachers and book store managers and fast food drivethrough servers who were utterly terrified, still did the job, and have the guts to say later, "I was shit scared."

There’s a base level that is expected of every soldier, sailor, Marine, airmen, and Coast Guard. Be professional. Do your job. Refuse unlawful orders. Protect the innocents. Work your ass off. Uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against allenemies, both foreign and domestic. That worshipful attitude toward troops doesn’t seem to include any real, down-to-earth practical understanding of what soldiers do and who they are.

There was a lady at a bus stop once who told me, “Oh, I could never do that.” She shuddered delicately. Well, you know what? Yes, you could. Training gives you skills and confidence, changes your work ethic. *You just don’t want to. * She probably felt that war is wrong and all that, but you know what? There will always be wars, and we need to look at how we view and treat the military, because very few people serve these days. We also need to decide how those wars will be fought by our side. Now, instead of reacting to another war that seems to come out of nowhere.

I think that slavish fetishization is related to what this lady was saying, though I don’t know if she realized how her statement *felt.*Somebody’s gotta do that ugly job, let’s not think about what that really means, who those somebodies will be, what they will face, what they will endure, and what it will do to them. If we don’t think about who’s fighting our wars, it’s so much easier to send them off, unseen and forgotten. The “respect the troops” types sure don’t respect you once they figure out you have differing political opinions, but they like to cover it up with that, “I respect your service.” (They don’t.) And that phrase? It only comes out when they’ve discovered you’re The Other, so you can’t possibly be a real soldier. It’s the political equivalent of, “I’m not saying this buuuuuut…” goes on to…say “this.”

Real respecting the troops would look a lot like really loving your country, which is not that “Love it or leave it” mindset. Loving your country is like loving your parents. When you’re a toddler, they’re awe-inspiring, terrible Gods, who can do magic and move mountains. When you’re an adullt, they’re human beings, and you see all their flaws and how they did the best they could, and even had sex a few times. They’re vulnerable and scared and one day you’ll have to take care of them and it’s scary.

If we looked at soldiers the same way, we’d see Bob the accountant and Jane the nurse, and know that we’re sending them off to face terrors and bombs and bullets and amputations and possible death. So we call them “heroes” and that makes them myths instead of neighbors and coworkers. And we get to never truly think about what our responsibilities to them are. The social contract ain’t squat these days.

No, it’s bordering on worship if it’s not already there. The US venerates soldiers to an extent unprecedented in its history, and quite unusual for a civilian-run, democratic nation.

It is plainly obvious, incidentally, that it does not take extraordinary stuff to be a competent soldier. For one thing, I was a soldier, and I am a dolt. For another, in times of massive national crisis, the USA and other countries have been able to find truly immense numbers of capable soldiers, often ones who had to be drafted.

People generally do not join the armed services because they are exceptionally brave.

This isn’t true, though, and the truth illustrates the reason this is a terrible analogy. The Japanese did not just attack Pearl Harbor; they launched an attack on American possessions and forces throughout the Pacific, and against other Western powers in a manner clearly a threat to the USA. They did so in a context of a world in which Japan was a military superpower that was openly hostile to the United States and acting in a manner threatening to American interests, and was allied with Nazi Germany, another threatening military superpower that the USA was already in an undeclared naval war with and was quite obviously going to be in a full scale war with within months anyway. Those adversaries clearly could not be dealt with in any manner except full scale warfare and that had been increasingly evident for some time going into December 7, 1941. The moment was a shock, but the direction America was headed in was already apparent.

The 9/11 terrorists were Afghani citizens?

I’m sorry but this is a bunch of crap. “Terrorists” - poor brown guys 7000 miles away from America who get drone bombed because someone said they were a terrorist. And they are so dangerous that we have to kill 1000s of civilians to get them. Give me a break.

If only they had chosen different vocations…

I wrote a Sci-fi short story a while back along a similar theme (not that it ever got published), involving an enemy supposed to have psychic powers (the ability to get into your mind and provoke mortal terror, but only if you’re already at least a little bit scared), and for the good of the public, veterans of the conflict “must conform to type” (the stereotypical PTSD-ridden veteran) so that at no point can anyone ever be allowed to look at a veteran and feel anything but pity and/or admiration for them. Because god forbid they ever looked at a veteran and saw someone even remotely like themselves. Then THEY might succumb to fear (as a consequence of imagining someone so much like themselves being subjected to so much terror) and then THEY would be at risk of having that fear exploited by the enemy to the point that they might actually refuse to support the conflict—if enough people got like that, the government might have to end the war! The horror…

But of course it doesn’t actually require an alien foe with weaponized psychic powers to cause people to empathize. Or at least it shouldn’t.

RickJay:

It certainly was apparent to some, but in the middle of the depression, America’s attitude was very isolationist. The fact that America went to war after Pearl Harbor was not due to shock but because isolationism was no longer an option. In fact, 9/11 is an excellent analogy in this regard because George W. Bush ran on a hands-off foreign policy and intended to devote his presidency to domestic issues, but was forced into engagement by America being directly attacked.

Yes, I will readily admit that the long-term dangers of ignoring the shenanigans of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were greater than that of ignoring Al Qaeda. But in both cases, the America of the time was disinclined toward actually addressing them until attacked head-on.

manson1972:

The Afghani government was providing safe haven in Afghanistan for the 9/11 terrorists. As if you didn’t know.

Give me a break. It had nothing at all to do with the color of their skin and shame on you and anyone who has tried to make this a racial issue. If the masterminds behind the 9/11 terrorists were hiding in Norway with the support of the Norwegian government you can bet your ass that the fjords would have been littered with lily-white blond corpses in pursuit of them.

@ cmkeller — Review the last half of my #36. When Al-Qaeda leaders were fleeing — and thus no longer “hiding among the general population” — was about when Cheney decided it would be more profitable to attack Iraq instead, and let Bin Laden go.

Septimus - at no time in this thread have I been arguing in favor of the war against Iraq. My argument has been purely in favor of attacking Afghanistan over 9/11, which some people in this thread believe was unjustified.

I thought the 9/11 terrorists died in 9/11, and the AQ leadership lived in Pakistan. Further, I’m pretty sure we had no extradition agreement with the Taliban, and when we requested that they had over bin Laden, they asked to see the evidence, which sounds totes reasonable before you give up a resident alien for execution.

18 years ago my sister — normally a smart progressive pacifist — sent me a cartoon. It depicted a B-52 heading for Afghanistan with the caption “The terrorists won the toss and elected to receive.” Americans, understandably, had a reptilian appetite for revenge.

Yes, the U.S. had little choice but to attack Afghanistan. But surely there was an option better than an 18-year quagmire that leaves Taliban in power. (And of course the invasion of Iraq was criminal malfeasance.)

The Cheney-Bush over-reaction and misconduct in their Middle East wars was the terrorists’ best wet-dream come true.

(Answering OP, the veterans still deserve our praise and sympathy. It wasn’t their fault that the country was led by imbeciles and criminals.)

Sure. Keep on thinking that.