Stop blindly following your government and question it for God sake

The BBQ Pit
1

I was going to post this in the GD thread about tactical nukes but I realised that it should go here. It’s in response to Sam Stone’s post in (Thread ID 103373) ??.

The civilian death-toll from the US operations in Afghanistan are a lot higher than the low hundreds. Its just that the Military don’t really want to report how many they kill (duh) and the American Newsmedia seem to be following suit.

From http://www.comw.org/pda/0201oef.html late January.

Try this site for some food for thought.
http://www.fair.org/international/afghanistan.html

You are not going to hear very much about the effect of the bombings on the Afghan population. You are not going to see pictures of dead civilians. Hell, how many people have even a rough estimation of how many people were killed in the late nineties bombings of Iraq?

When you say things like “HOW DARE the rest of the world criticise the U.S.” you sound to me like you have your head in the sand. Why the hell shouldn’t the rest of the world criticise the US if they see a reason to do so.

The US should question and criticise (as they see fit) the US. It is our duty. Don’t blindly follow your (US citizens now not Sam Stone) Government unless you are aware of what exactly it is they are doing.

People (mainly in the US) should not accept everything that CNN or the State Department holds up for them. Time and time again we hear stories (years later) about governments doing the ‘wrong’ thing. Lying to their constituents, fudging the figures, pursuing utterly selfish courses of action, killing large numbers of civilians in war operations. Yet at the time noone bothers to check whats going on. And then years later when the truth comes out people will simply say “that was back then, Now things are different” and around we go again.

I don’t hate the United States, but they are (like it or not) the Worlds’ Policemen and its time more people questioned just how humanitarian their motives are. From the local city council to NATO itself, ‘They’ are not always working for the good of the world.

I know there are a million web sites, books and newspapers out there that will claim that the US is doing everything from hiding UFO’s to using Movie stars to control foreign governments. And 99% of them are complete Bullshit. But bad things do happen in this world, and they are allowed to happen because either people don’t know about them or do and choose to ignore them. Im not saying that everyone should reach for the molitov cocktail, Im just saying use your brain and question, question, question.

wow, what a rant. Guess this is the place for it.

oh, and FUCK!

2

Cites in The Pit? This place really has changed…

3

Hear, hear.

4

We should question and criticize ourselves?

When I do that, they increase my medication…

5

Got any unbiased proof of that? Heck, got any actual evidence of that?

Or even for these two wild assertions?

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I’d just like to point out that 1000-1300 is indeed a number which can be measured in the hundreds. And not very big, either. On the ugly end, it’s what? Thirteen hundred? That’s like a nice baker’s dozen of dead Afganis. Now, doesn’t that sound all warm and cozy? Like melting butter on breadsticks. Mmmmm…
Tenebras

So, like, Hitler killed, like, dozens of Jews?

Yes Timmy, dozens.

:wink:

7

Sorry, my claims in the statement you quoted have turned out to be incorrect. Though I was trying to be conservative, the actual number is more like 3500.
Australian Broadcasting Network (ABC) transcript of AM broadcast December 31, 2001

And that was a month and a half ago. Thats what happens when you drop thousands of bombs on a country. What did you think was happening?

Monty Did you do any research to quickly check the figures for yourself or did you just assume I was quoting a crackpot source?

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That cite doesn’t really tell me too much. It doesn’t detail the methodology used to arrive at that figure. With the info in the cite, we basically have to take the Professor’s word for it. The article mention that UofNH spent a lot of time compiling figures. No mention of where the data came from or anything. As it is, thats not good enough to sway my opinion.

I also found this interesting…

I could be wrong, but from this I have doubts that this Professor’s area of expertise even intersects with what he’s studing here.

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Forgetting the death toll for a while, and getting back to my point, I see far too few people asking questions about this WoT and far too many simply cheering it on without a thought. This is real. People are dying, nations are stirring and the USA war machine is gathering momentum every day. I have a nervous feeling that one day we will look back on these times with regret.
Oh, and the Office of Strategic Influence. Are you fucking kidding me? The office of lets lie to the foreign Press who will pass it on to the US media as fact.

Do you really think that that stuff doesn’t go on now? According to this it always was going on. Jesus, ““aggressive campaigns that use not only the foreign media and the internet but also covert operations”” who the fuck are these people and what exactly are they doing is what I’d be asking.

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Christ you sound like a cliche.

Is it time to wake up for a revolution against the nation-state next?

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i’m hearing stories of villages being bombed based on ‘reports’ of known terrorist being there.

is that true? seems a little excessive.

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Keymain

OK, back to the death toll.

The Irish Times elaborate on the methods used further with

That was new years day and they have been bombing for months after that. But as I said its not really the point. Why don’t we know how many people have been killed? Why does it take some guy weeks to calculate it in a university instead of being avaliable through the media more readily? Doesn’t anyone give a fuck? A human life is a human life.

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Odd that this source is not good enough for you, and yet the obviously biased military sources are…

It would be foolish to blindly accept the military’s claim of “low hundreds” of civilian deaths without proof. On the other hand, there is no reason to believe the “mid thousands” claimed by alternative sources.

I think the truth is that nobody knows how many people are dieing - it could be very few, or it could be ridiculously high. I would guess the real amount lies somewhere in between - but let’s not forget that this isn’t happening for shits and giggles. It’s unavoidable.

'Coz there are no readily available figures. No-one is totting them up on a blackboard because it’s just not possible to keep track. When the dust settles at the end of the war, then people can be accounted for - but still only to a limited degree.

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And if it hasn’t, then what?

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Then the number according to the Prof’s figures will lie somewhere between the orginal 3,700 and the extrapolated 5,300. What’s your point?

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And your whiny-assed point is???

Yes, we know bombs are being dropped. I’ve also heard there were a couple of bullets fying around, too. That happens in a war. I would also assume there would be some casualties. That seems to be the point of dropping the bombs…I could be wrong about that, though.

There are still folks over there who are responsible for leveling a couple of our buildings. Perhaps you heard about it. Until every last one of them is in custody, or dead, this is going to continue. This is a good thing. I support it. Not blindly, but with eyes wide open. (I get the impression that you consider any opinion that differs from yours to ‘blind unthinking obedience’)

And if you have a problem with it, I don’t care

17

Here’s a BBC report from the 29 October, 2001 claiming 1500 civilian deaths. I would assume that figure has increased considerably since then.

As to the rest of the OP I have to say I agree.

The US should be open to criticism as should every other country in the world. Press/Government reports especially at time of War should be not taken at face value.

Just because somebody raises questions about the policies of a country does not mean that they hate that country. Surely it is the one of the strengths of Democracies that people can raise such questions.

Then again it’s much easier to dismiss people as “haters” then to actually accept that the may have a point or even listen to them.

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Christ over react much spooje? You’ll be bursting out into song next.

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Interesting that you aren’t applying that to any other country’s government at this time. Or ruling class, party, or extremist group. Our collective press is under no obligation to make the State Department look good. And since Afghanistan had no formal government and lacked things like a “census” as well as food and medical supplies, one questions how they know there are, say, 70 people killed in Kandahar. Everyone’s total is a best guess. But here’s a quote from that BBC link: “Taleban officials say that about 1,500 civilians have been killed by the bombing raids.” Oct. 29 Is this your “proof?”

Per the OP’s cite there’s no clear agreement whether to classify the women & children of the Taliban as civilians. I suppose some figures include them, some don’t.

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Samboy!

You’re part of the Axis of Evil! :eek:

Evil I tell you.

Oy. :rolleyes:

I totally agree with your post - couldn’t have said it better… I do have a remedy for your headache - go read some Chomsky…

Elly