How would you handle Iraq?

Great Debates
1

Let’s start out with some assumptions (if you don’t like these assumptions, start your own damn thread) about G. W.'s position:

  1. Pulling troops out before the country is more stable is not an option since a chaotic Iraq will be more dangerous to US interests than before.
  2. The current situation of American soldiers wandering around Iraq with no clear-cut criteria for “victory” is not an option either because you face a splitting of your party or handing the country to the Democrats in the November 2008 elections. Oh yeah, Americans are being killed while your policy is “a tale told by an idiot” (I love Macbeth references) which is probably not good.
  3. You don’t need to worry about re-election BUT you are worried about the Republican Party for November 2008.
  4. You can get the funding from Pelosi for stabalizing the current situation but not for another full-fledged war.

So what do you do? Lay on Macduff!

2

Given these conditions the only thing I can see to do is to retreat to the bases and never venture forth again except for resupplying and fortifying the supply routes from Kuwait and other logistic bases. The 130K troops would have extended vacations and would be, more than now anywya, safe and sound. Attempting a social engineering project at this late stage in the game is a fool’s errand, IMO.

That is my moral side. If we wish to be immoral we could very publically state to the world and the Iraqi society that any neighborhood that attacks U.S. troops or Iraqi security forces will be razed to the ground. This will quickly solve the problem, mainly because we’ll run out of people to kill. It will also energize certain segments of the Republican base for the 08 elections. Another plus is that if they don’t respect us then they can fear us. And by “them” I mean the entire Muslim population of the Middle East, 'natch. Isn’t going down that road fun?

I agree that the other assumptions are valid for G.W. Bush. However, it’s not clear to me that Bush has this goal in mind.

3

I don’t like the assumptions, and subject to being swatted by a moderator, I am physically able to do what I want in this thread.

  1. Pulling the troops out might not more dangerous to US interests, actually I’m coming to the conclusion that it would be a smart idea.

  2. The Democrats will need to be pretty incompetent to avoid a victory in 2008, which is no real problem as changes of government are not unusual for the USA, and while I don’t really believe in ‘democracy’, the chance of a periodic change of government does tend to prevent things getting totally out of hand.

  3. The Republicans will probably win 2016

  4. Starting another full fledged war ? Turning Iran into a wasteland should be quite cheap, not that it seems a good idea. When one finds oneself in a hole, generally the best policy is to stop digging.

Actually, my take on Macbeth was that he was quite a good bloke, Duncan was a tosser for trying to impose hereditory kingship (of a juvenile) where it was not the general rule, Banquo had a sense of ‘The Selfish Gene’ - and Malcolm was a traitor for bringing in an English army. As for MacDuff - well he was Malcolm’s enforcer.

In corporate terms, Duncan named an inappropriate successor, suffered a boardroom coup, which was accepted, until Duncan’s kid launched a hostile takeover with the backing of the company’s bitter rivals.

Hmm… maybe the deforestation of Burnham Woods has something to do with Global Warming - I must consult my Holinshed.

4

1.Get serious about training the Iraqi troops and police. If the US Army or any local police training facility took that long to prepare our own people for service, they’d be fired.

2.Require that our contractors hire Iraqi workers, wherever possible. Before the war, Iraqis ran the powerplants, the cement factories, and the oil fields. All the truck drivers were Iraqis. They were all happy to work for less than half what we pay our contract employees to do the same work. We’re paying for corporate “cost-plus” profit, and worse, we’re pissing off the locals, who did those jobs before the war.

3.Restore the flow of safe water, electricity, and oil. The first will keep people from getting sick, the second will restore normal life, and the third will generate money for Iraq. If you don’t understand the importance of money in a place like Iraq, you need more than my humble storehouses of information.

5

1.Get serious about training the Iraqi troops and police. If the US Army or any local police training facility took that long to prepare our own people for service, they’d be fired.

2.Require that our contractors hire Iraqi workers, wherever possible. Before the war, Iraqis ran the powerplants, the cement factories, and the oil fields. All the truck drivers were Iraqis. They were all happy to work for less than half what we pay our contract employees to do the same work. We’re paying for corporate “cost-plus” profit, and worse, we’re pissing off the locals, who did those jobs before the war.

3.Restore the flow of safe water, electricity, and oil. The first will keep people from getting sick, the second will restore normal life, and the third will generate money for Iraq. If you don’t understand the importance of money in a place like Iraq, you need more than my humble storehouses of information.

6

I don’t follow the logic that a complete pull-out is an unthinkable option. Sure, Iraq will completely collapse within a matter of weeks and become a complete hellhole. But is there an alternative? I’d support the American presense in Iraq if I felt it was accomplishing something but so far all we’ve seen is that it’s slowing down the speed of the Iraqi collapse at the cost of getting Americans killed.

To use a historical analogy: what would have happened if we had pulled out of Vietnam in 1964? That’s easy - the Communists would have taken over the entire country. So we stayed for nine more years and suffered 60,000 casualties. And what was the final result? The Communists took over the entire country. So the ultimate difference between a 1964 pull-out and the 1973 pull-out was 60,000 casualties.

7

I don’t think attacking the first assumption is right for this thread, since I think the idea is for us to pretend we’re Bush and make a plan.

8

Here’s my plan for Iraq. If the goal is western style democracy, then the easiest way to accomplish this is to create a self-replicating model, start a chain reaction, and watch the country convert to democracy. Start by building a heavily fortified military base on top of the best oil field in Iraq. Call this “Freedom Town 1”.

Invite the most skilled Iraqi workers to live there. Each invitee must pass a skill certification test and gets to invite immediate family (wife and kids under 18) to live with them in Freedom Town.

Residents of Freedom Town agree to obey laws, be surveilled, not blow up their neighbors, work hard etc. In return, they get safety and security, clean water, fresh food, great living quarters, quality education, opportunity to worship in peace, and a decent working wage.

Anyone can leave Freedom Town at any time, but re-entry may not be granted. Anyone who disobeys the law will be promptly escorted out of Freedom Town.

Workers have jobs such as doctors, construction workers, teachers, oil workers, etc. But no Iraqi military or police. US soldiers will guard the fence and settle disputes. After 5 years, the residents may elect political leaders to work with US administrators to draft legislation. After 10 years, they may elect judges and police to enforce the legislation.

When Freedom Town 1 is full, find the next best location in terms of natural resources and build Freedom Town 2, etc.

The cost of building these isolated pockets of western civilization is less than fighting a war. Outside of Freedom Town, Iraqis are free to do their own thing as long as they stay 10 miles away from the fence of any Freedom Town.

9

If I were president, I would pull the troops out. But that is not the question.

If I were Bush, I would send in more troops until peace breaks out. Bush is an idiot.

10

I really don’t see a real alternative to just pulling the troops out. IMHO we must establish a few things in the minds of Arab governments and population.

  1. We support their right to determine their own destiny, good bad or in between.
    I can’t imagine any people accepting prolonged occupation by a foreign power no matter how benevolent we pretend it is. We try to establish democracy in those countries by actually supporting the principles of democracy, rather than paying off corrupt leaders who pretend to look after our interests for profit. An idealistic fantasy I know, but there it is.

  2. We let people know and demonstrate that we will not tolerate governments covertly offering support to terrorists. In this we need to reestablish our allies in the UN who are also facing this threat. It is indeed a new kind of war and we need to work with those we share the planet with to find some solution. We need to stress that economic interests are not acceptable reasons to look the other way.

  3. We need to start a serious campaign to try and be more understood and less hated by the general population. We need Arab American diplomats in place working with groups in each country to promote peace and mutual respect. I think this would also mean changing our policies concerning Israel. Are words of human rights, freedom, and democracy seem empty and hypocritical if we are willing to sacrifice the rights of the Palestinians to appease an ally.

4, Bush and Chaney should be pulled from the White House, tied to the back of the presidential limo, and dragged down PA ave. While the population holds up signs saying, Warmonger, Lying SOB, Greedy heartless cooperate toady, and Traitor to the Constitution. I’m not sure this would improve the situation in Iraq but I think I’d feel better.

11

I agree.

We know what Bush will do, meta, even if we don’t know all the details. He will keep our troops in Iraq at something like the current strength until the end of his term (unless our butts are kicked out of there), and whatever he does, things will get worse. What else is there to say?

12

There’s no solution under the conditions you’ve set forth. Even if I were in charge, I couldn’t solve this. Best solution is to minimize casualties until such time as you can implement a real solution, e.g. leaving as fast as possible.

The only hope I could see would be engaging with Iraq’s neighbours - all of them, including Iran - in a sincere effort to stabilize Iraq, up to and including troop contributions. I’m not confident that would work, but nothing else will, assuming your conditions.

13

First, we send all those US and British leaders there to serve for a year on the ground with a rifle and a bayonet to depend upon.

Bush, Pearl, Rumsfeld, Blair and all rest of them of them should go.

Going by the US elections, plenty of others voted for it too, I don’t give a stuff about their age and gender, anyone overheard stating the war is a good thing should be made to join them.

Once they are dead, we pull out.

Next lot of leaders who have similar opinions can be the first boots to hit enemy territory.

Maybe then there won’t be another Iraq, or maybe they will have far more compelling reasons to go to war, reasons that are genuine.

14

I began to laugh when I read this—then I read on, and the smile melted from my face as I realized you might not be joking.

15

It’s not any sillier than the current Bush plan. Might even have a better chance of success.

16

The current Bush plan is a sham. I doubt anyone in the admin actually thinks it will bring the “success” they keep harping on. It’s a political and financial tool. It’s a cruel joke they should be impeached for. Isn’t complete and utter incompetence that continues to cost American lives and squander our resources a good enough reason?

17

I agree that just pulling out could leave the area in worst shape than it is in now. We broke it, we should fix it.

Divide the country into pieces. Kurdistan, Southern Shiite Iraq, Central Sunni Iraq.

  • Profit sharing to all 3 sectors for the oil.
  • Assist in moving anyone to any sector (if you are Shiite and find yourself in the Sunni triangle, we will provide the u-haul and the first month’s deposit on your new apartment).
  • Open access to the ports as well.
    Some sort of a Republic style government.

Set up boot camps for the soldiers & cops, and invite their families. Move them OUT of town. They don’t come back until their are fully trained and ready to be peace keepers, without risk of being blown up during training. We can make a Marine in 6 months, we should be able to make an Iraqi peacekeeper in one year.

18

What makes you think that is within our power?

19

I don’t know that it is in our power. I do think it is now our responsibility, however.

20

To throw unlimited lives and resources into a pit of unknown depth? I don’t think any sense of responsibility requires us to make that sacrifice without end.