My roommate and I have been having a discussion lately, and I was wondering if anyone here had any information. We were wondering: Who would win in a fight between a human and a baboon? We’re not talking about a big mandrill baboon–we’re talking about a smaller species, like a hamadryas. Two feet tall, 40-45 lbs. He and I are in agreement that the human would most likely win, but everyone else we talk to says we’re nuts. We’ve devoted many long hours to discussing possible scenarios (hey, we’re in college and it’s summer–what else do we have to do?). Here’s the stipulations:
-1 human (we’ve been using my roommate as the human here–about 5’11", 160 lbs, male, no real combat experience or training aside from a handful of schoolyard fights) vs. 1 baboon (a hamadryas, from the wild, about 2’, 40-45 lbs) only
-No pre-made weapons allowed (rocks, sticks, etc. picked up from the surroundings, however, are allowed).
-No clothes
-To the death
Most people we talk to suggest that the baboon would win. Their argument? All it needs to do to kill you is to get its teeth on your jugular. It’s faster than the human, and probably has greater muscle density. The human would most likely be unable to defend the neck against the baboon’s speed.
Our argument? Defending the neck won’t be nearly as hard as most people seem to suggest. The human’s mass is three times the baboon’s–fighting it back with a few well-placed blows can easily get it to the ground. At that point, the fight either becomes a grappling match, in which the human’s mass is the biggest advantage, or the human stomps it to death.
So what do others think? I’m most interested in specific information about primate behavior and anatomy. Things like baboon combat in the wild, relative bone and muscle densities, baboon jaw strength, etc. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Baboons can be quite dangerous to humans, as I recall from my undergrad Primate Behavior class. My guess is that fatal attacks are rare, but since this isn’t a steel-cage death match, my money says the lame-ass human runs away long before the baboon.
And a quick check of the web shows that while African residents aren’t being killed left and right, they seem to have a healthy respect for the wee beasties.
Near Cape Point, south of Cape Town, in South Africa, they have many chacma baboons who have become quite habituated to tourists. They also cause a lot of trouble by taking food away from the tourists. I think a few tourists have been hurt – the baboons are strong and have giant pointy fangs.
True story – I was there with my parents, my wife, my brother, and my brother’s flighty girlfriend. The first time we saw baboons on the street, the girlfriend leaps out of the microbus and runs towards them to take pictures. My father nearly had a heart attack, as did the rest of us. Needless to say, she got quite an earful after that.
Well I’m probably on their side here; wouldn’t place money on the human. In fights this serious, it usually comes down to more a matter of “the size of fight in the dog” as opposed to “the size of dog in the fight”. An animal like a baboon that has been pushed far enough to try and kill you will be quite enraged, and not likely to play fair. For most primates, if you don’t piss them off, they’re not that dangerous… get them mad or scared and they’ll litteraly rip you apart. People seem less adept at getting into such a mind state of kill or be killed - especially when eging on other species for kicks; we usually end up panicing and curling into a little ball screaming if we realize our tactics aren’t very effective or the fight doesn’t go our way within say 30 seconds. A wild animal that’s been scrapping all it’s life with other baboons and leopards will have you beat hands down for the appropriate “fighting spirit” so to speak. Read about the hypothetical “human vs dog” question here . A baboon would be even more dangerous I think, because they’d have the manual dexterity of a human plus the jaws and teeth of a dog. Also don’t assume that a primate will fight like a person. From what I’ve seen they tend to charge with blinding speed and grab onto your upper body in a death grip and start ripping with their nails and sinking their teeth into whatever is there. Cover your neck, and they’ll gouge your eyes or rip your ears off. Kinda hard to get in your well-placed blows on a screaming monkey twice your speed perched on your shoulder with teeth buried in your cheek. I think your best bet would be to do a huge belly-flop onto the baboon while it’s looking the other way. Other than that, you’ll be bruised and bleeding at best if you happen to win. Not to be mean or anything, but most of these “human vs X” questions seem to come from people that haven’t had much to do with physical confrontations of any kind and have a touch of cabin fever:D. Look at people who DO deal with animals and see how willing they are to mix it up one on one with anything bigger than a racoon - they all avoid it like the plague for good reason… we’d loose the battle almost every time without our tools and a lot of training and experience.
My Father was stationed in Ethyopia in the Army in 1965. He told me a story about baboons:
He was riding in a Truck in a rural area. The truck broke down/overheated (it’s been a long time since he told me the story) and the driver started working on it. A troop of baboons was nearby. Thinking they would scatter, my father threw a rock into the middle of the troop.
Big mistake. It started raining small stones as every baboon in the troop returned fire. The driver and my father managed to get inside the truck without being injured, where they were basically held captive for the next half hour.
I wouldn’t mess with one; their fangs are scary. I’ve seen them fight on the discovery channel and it ain’t pretty. If I had a 2-3 foot length of pipe or other sturdy club I would feel more confident, but I wouldn’t go after one for fun.
You know, I was all set to come in here and make a joke ( but only if I could attempt to answer the question ) about how I had thought, based on the thread title, that this was a “who could beat up who” question.
I am vastly amused to find out it actually is a “who could beat up who” thread .
I’m with mmmiiikkkeee. A well-prepared person with experience dealing with animals and the proper gear, is one thing. Your average schmoe is quite another. Most of us may be prepared to get punched in the face. But we are not going to react well to getting savaged with several inch fangs. When it comes right down to an actual encounter, only an extraordinary individual ( or a trained professional ) is going to be capable of staying calm enough under that sort of threat, to efficiently defend themselves. Besides non-human primates are generally pretty terrifically strong for their size ( Cecil had a column on the subject, I believe ).
Not saying a human couldn’t win. But I wouldn’t bet on the outcome.
And personally I’d flee mmmiiikkkeee’s hypothetical raccoon as well . They’re mean little bastards when they’re pissed .
This reminds me of a question that I thought of when writing a science fiction story a couple of years back. Who would win in a fight between a combat-trained human and a large dog, IF the dog was as intelligent as a human and had spent several years training in a form of martial arts devised and refined by intelligent dogs over a couple of thousand years.
Dog : vastly superior speed, lower center of gravity, more compact body form, snout and masseter/jaw/tooth structure designed for biting hard.
Humans : opposable thumbs.
Really, it is like those Far Side cartoons with the bear eating the hunter – no fur, no claws, no shell, just pink. Humans did not evolve to be fighters. Since our homonid beginnings we have been using tools to augment our killing abilities. Taking those away from us is equivalent to taking the fangs and speed away from the baboon or the dog.
The fair fight would be hunter/gatherer (forest raised) human equipped with club or other implement of destruction versus forest raised baboon. Now there’s a betting fight…
I’ve been debating this with my buddies for years as well. Everyone is so scared of monkeys and they should be. They are wild and have teeth. But we humans take ourselves for granted and in a fight to the death out in some remote part of the jungle, you’ll be surprised what you can do.
Quite simply, a man should win and physics supports this to be true. It would be much like fighting a dog of similar weight. Sure the baboon is faster and has teeth and he may even bite you. However the the bite strength would not be enough to take off a limb. Maybe a finger, Ill give you that but this is to the death. A baboon may be strong and have denser muscle mass but we just have too much for the baboon to compensate for.
An enraged man would simply defend his neck and head area as is our instinctual nature and absorb any attack the baboon can unleash but once the man grasps this baboon it is all over. Allow the baboon to bite your forearm and grad the small baboon. A simple strangulation would do the trip but also a neck break is also possibility. And if you want to have fun simply beat the monkey on the ground like a bag of ice.
A mandrill would pose a more serious fight but I still think a man with good athletic ability, a crazy look in his eye, and sheer will could stand his ground.
So when the baboon rips your testicles off while you are guarding your neck and head, would that be the appropriate time to unleash the fury upon them?
Baboon no problem, most of the time. Too fast, too strong, and too toothy in an enraged state. However, if a human is fast enough to deliver a well placed kick or grab the creature and hurl it at the ground he could end the fight right there.
There was some old movie about people stuck somewhere after a plane crash, and the bad guy doesn’t leave when the rest are rescued. He ends up becoming the leader of the baboons after besting the alpha male. So if it happened in a movie, it must be possible.
Humans are a dominant species for a reason. Besides our intelligence, we are bipedal and extremely strong. That is why we we have to teach even small children to be gentle with smaller dogs and cats for example. Our casual strength and ability to apply leverage in ways quadrupeds cannot makes us dangerous. Now I’ll grant that many other great apes can easily out muscle us, but baboons are small and primarily quadrupedal. The only things nastier to grapple with than a pissed off human is our closest great ape cousins, bears and big cats. Our human combatant need not be Bruce Lee here. He only need wait until the baboon closes with him then quite literally wrench a limb out of it’s socket and beat it against the ground, or a handy tree. Will he get bitten or mauled? Almost certainly, but this isn’t about a flawless victory.
It depends on the human. Your everyday guy from the IT department, with a paunch and a fondness for cheeseburgers is probably not going to have the skills necessary to defeat a wild baboon. On the other hand a Navy Seal in his prime should have no trouble dispatching the beast.
This is an excellent illustration of the need for the Oxford comma. For the first two read-throughs, I thought you were woefully misinformed about evolution.
Also, IIRC baboons like chimps and gorillas have tendons that tie in much higher up on the bone allowing the muscles to generate more torque so pound for pound their muscles can lift more weight.
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