That addresses the be-kind-to-animals vegans but I was curious what the position of the obviously-a-healthier-diet vegans is concerning breast milk.
They’re just be-kind-to-plants vegans, I was merely pointing out that the inconsistency of phylum discrimination as to what can and can’t be eaten (or what are and what are not animals) seems to be absent in the plant kingdom.
I do understand the motivation. If they think that creating suffering is wrong, then they desire to do things to reduce suffering. If they think about suffering including how commercial animals are farmed for food induces unnatural suffering, then they may be motivated to change those practices. Well, those practices are only in place because they are profitable, and because the vast majority of people aren’t aware or don’t care. So as someone who does care, they attempt to make people more aware of the practices, and argue that the only way to really change is to refuse to be part of the process. Stop people from eating commercially farmed animals that are mistreated, and then there’s no profit, so the practice stops.
Then there’s the folks that think that killing animals at all is wrong. That practice itself is kinda cruel, and causes unnecessary suffering. So to them, the goal is to raise awareness and stop that practice.
The point is, from a moral position, the two camps are not on equal footing. It is fine for you to say you don’t think it is wrong, so you don’t care what they eat and they should do the same. But the problem is they do think it is wrong, so letting you eat what you want is not harmless, it is just as wrong as letting you kill your neighbor because, hey, I’m not killing my neighbor, so what do I care what you do?
It’s not a question of tastes, it’s a question of harm and of right and wrong.
Not much, considering the tale of the headless chicken. A guy was going to kill his chicken for dinner, but when he went to cut the head off, he wanted to preserve as much neck as possible. So he chopped pretty close and actually chopped right about the mouth level. The chicken got up and continued to live. They fed it by pouring stuff down the throat, and it lived for some time.
No, that was not the whole of my basis and you have twisted what i was saying. Nor do i find it silly to eat Fruit and not animals. Fruit is given by the tree freely. To eat Animals is so rediculously different.. And if you choose to ignore that, thats also rediculous.
Yes, to eat anumals is logically the same as eating the leaves, stems or roots of plants, which you have to kill for.
This is an interesting story, but to meet the requirements, we need to come up with a chicken that is born without a head. It might be a interesting question if vegetarians would be willing to eat headless chicken meat.
BTW, here is the wikipedia article on In vitro meat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat
There is no necessity to eat animals. Yes it can be made to taste delicious. It may have had its place at one point, but that doesnt justify its continuence. It may not be so much of a right and wrong issue as much as it is a matter of grade and evolution. As we become more spiritually connected and pure, we need less of the grosser, heavier consumables to keep us going.
And yes we as a whole were not happy for so long… True happiness is more than ‘shits and giggles’. I am not attacking the meat eater, i am defending from all the bashings that vegetarians consistently are put through. It would seem that many meat eaters are in denial and are possibly jealous or something. We are not superior, but our vegetarian diet is.
I do not subscribe the notion that we eat solely to ‘keep us going’. Gustation is as much a part of the pursuit of happiness as sex or the appreciation of music and art. My life is diminished by limiting my diet to only that which I need to survive.
You are entitled to your opinion, but just don’t try to support it with any empirical science.
So are others’ lives diminished by our arts and fancies. I entertain both thoughts, i in a big way hope that eating meat is not as horrifying as i currently view it. But i do currently view it this way. I hope this cause yes, if i were to eat meat, cooked and seasoned right now i would no doubt enjoy the sense pleasure of it… And be thankful. But i do believe in ideals. There is no oyher way to get out of a pit unless you climb out of it. Just cause the surface is pretty or yummy or whatever doesnt mean it is wholesome.
:rolleyes:
Congrats. You’ve just justified abortion clinic bombings.
Nobody is forcing you to eat meat. And just so you know I do hunt, and fish, I have raised animals for food. As a vegetarian you have to plan you diet very carefully in order to get the right amount of b12 in your diet, as a omnivore I don’t have that problem, so to say a vegetarian diet is superior isn’t quite truthful. As far as happy, I am very happy, and will be until I die. Unlike many other people in the world I don’t fear death, so I will do things that I enjoy and will make me happy. If not eating meat makes you happy then don’t eat it. Simple.
And in response to the earlier video.
Don’t click if you have not since of humor Carrot Juice is Murder
There’s a Utilitarian argument for marginally increasing the amount of suffering you have to endure in order to prevent suffering for other entities capable of suffering. There is no evidence to support the fact that plants are capable of suffering, while there is such evidence for fish (for instance). We follow such practices daily when we decide not to eat everything we see in order to limit our own future suffering.
The argument about “the average vegetarian diet” and the “average omnivorous diet” tends to follow a trail of red herrings and shifting goalposts. I’ve never seen an analogue presented where the difficulty of monitoring an average vegetarian diet and the difficulty of monitoring the average omnivorous diet are compared. I have seen data suggesting the average vegetarian is healthier than the average omnivore, but people then shift the goalposts and attribute their health to greater scrutiny, as if the average vegetarian would drop dead if they didn’t spend three hours each day vacillating over the ingredients for and preparing meals, while the average meat eater can consume with reckless abandon as long as there’s a steak or burger in their diet at some point.
Hm, I wouldn’t mind being reincarnated as one of my hens - all the feed and water they can manage, running around in the sun chasing bugs during the day. All I ask is that she lay her eggs where I can collect them. When she is too old for laying [and hens will stop laying when they get to their version of old age] then she gets killed and eaten. No clipped beak, not shoved into a tiny cage. No medicated feeds or random hormones [they only get vetted if they are ill] Back when we had sheep, they ran around in the pasture and were fed. Granted they had a shorter lifespan unless we wanted to keep them for wool production [we harvested sheep for the mutton at about 2 or so years old]
May I point out that if you eat locavore, you can find farmers that raise meat and eggs in a reasonably stress free environment, with no medicated feeds or growth hormones if you look. Meat does not always come from a commercial meat lot.
That’s just bullshit. There’s a quality of life difference between animals and plants, in the nature of sentience and awareness. Animals have a scale, from insects through fish up to higher apes. Where in that spectrum of sentience and awareness one draws a line is a lot harder than drawing the line below brains. Plants don’t have brains.
Which is a lot different from saying that I am a vegetarian, but stupid arguments deserve a slapdown.
Not at all. I certainly recognize the parallel with the abortion topic, and I could have pointed that out myself, but you take my argument and extend it mighty far to go from “abortion is murder”* all the way to “therefore killing abortion providers is justified”.
Plenty of plants are demonstrably sentient.
If that is the case, then vegetarians/vegans should drop the ‘killing for food’ objection, when really it all depends of the individual’s opinion of sentience. I don’t how anyone could argue that an oyster is more sentient or aware than a cabbage.
Thanks for pointing this out - there are some that feel they can effect a bigger change on the system by being a part of it, rather than removing themselves from the equation. If factory-farming of meat bothers you, then stop buying factory-farmed meat. It does not mean you need to become a vegetarian. The presence of factory farms in the world, for me, is not enough to remove meat from my diet altogether. I will just vote with my dollars.
I agree with the above posts suggesting that it is not accurate to conflate a healthy diet with the choice to be vegetarian based on moral grounds. They are two separate issues: You can have animal protien in your diet and still eat a wholesome diet. And, you can choose to eat meat, or not, based on moral grounds. Two separate questions. I have heard this a few times: " I am a vegetarian because I don’t like knowing about the cruel conditions at the factory farms. Besides, being a vegetarian is healthier." Not always true.
My vote: Omnivore.
Please don’t say that. I cringe a little when I swallow a living creature as it is. Actually, I chew those little yummies right up.
Oysters, not cabbages.
There’s a matter of degree difference involved. Like I said, where one draws the line is the issue.
I remember reading once that human preference for meat evolved something like this: the great apes would sneak down from the trees to find food on the plains. They found, like other scanvegers, that there was fat and protein to be had in the leftovers from the big hunters of the savannah.
Our original digestive system evolved to eat the meat that had been aging in the sun and therefore was easy to digest. Eventually, protohumans learned to used fire to achieve the same effect as sunshine and enzymes, and cooking partially break down flesh so it was easy to digest. From chasing other scavengers away we learned the skills and tools needed to create our own sources of meat… but we prefer due to this path of evolution to not eat fresh raw meat.
The last I heard, all carnivores prefer cooked food. Man is just better prepared to have it all the time.