Hunting! Is it wrong in modern society?

If I understand her arguement correctly (something that, though quite rare, does occasionally happen), she believes that since the cow was raised to be food, and is going to die regardless of whether I buy it or not, then i should eat from that meat rather than killing a deer that, had I not gone to kill it, would have lived. At least for a while. It’s something like the arguement for public transportation; the buses are out there anyway, so why not use them and have one less car on the road.

I take into account that if I don’t buy the slaughtered meat, and instead kill my own, that’s either less meat that’s consumed in the supermarket, or more meat to go around. Either way, not a bad thing at all.

I have nothing substantive to offer to this debate, other than to say that like Qadgop, I fish, and have no problem with hunting from a moral point of view ( pure trophy hunting excluded, where the carcass is left to rot - That is morally indefensible ). I don’t myself, because my time is spent on other things. But I wouldn’t necessarily be disinclined to go.

Ankh_Too: Actually I’m posting because your first post tickled me - My father could have written it :slight_smile: . He grew up fairly poor ( but not starving ) in the same area ( near Export, PA ) on a “semi-subsistence” farm, with a coal miner father. His descriptions of his childhood almost exactly mirror yours :slight_smile: . He regularly made extra cash by running little trapping lines and he ( like most other kids in the area ) hunted on the side.

  • Tamerlane

Speaking for your SO (which of course i cannot REALLY do, but what the hell), I think she may be trying to make an argument to stop you for the same reason I would: it repels and disgusts her that you would elect to do this for the jollies of it.

If my hunny suddenly informed me that he was going to take up hunting, I would be severely distraught. I would do everything in my power to dissuade him, not to mention the fact that whether he actually did it or not, I would be deeply saddened that he even wanted to.

It isn’t a matter of right or wrong… so long as the animals being killed are not endangered in any way, and they are killed quickly. What it boils down to, for me and many people I know, is that the very fact that anyone would enjoy the act of killing, whether you eat or not, is repellant.

We have debated this before, most notably Scylla and I. You can find it around here somewhere.

But unless this is something that is desperately important to you, I would suggest you back off doing it. It sounds like your SO feels much as I do, and it would really mess with her head to have the man she loves go out and kill stuff.

stoid

ahhh…

relationship by way of intimidation…

Tell her to stuff it and then go hunting.

I have to disagree with this when you factor in the cost of guns, ammo, gas, maps, licenses, time off from work, and all the other equipment - I would say that it is more of a ‘break even’ at best.

Also I strongly disagree with your SO saying … well almost everything you said she said. Supermarket?!? Maybe take her to a farm and slaughterhouse and let her see where her maet really comes from :smiley:

**

There are a lot of poor people in Arkansas who have a few acres of land here and there. Some of them can quite literally go out in the backyard during hunting season and wait until a deer runs by. For those of us who live in rural areas and hunt in state it really doesn’t cost much at all.

Now while I was living in Dallas, Texas hunting was a pretty expensive thing to do. But here in ARkansas it is pretty cheap.

Marc

I see your point. And it would be of great savings to just shoot something on your own property heck you don’t even need a license (maybe you do but who’s going to know :wink: )

The following is a paraphrase of the opinion of a friend of mine who is a vegetarian for purely ethical reasons:

“There’s nothing wrong with hunting and fishing. In fact, I would have no problem with people eating fish that somebody caught of deer that they killed. Eating food that you hunted and killed yourself is morally miles above eating store bought meat that was raised to be exploited and slaughtered.”

I believe that she tried some fish that her boyfriend caught.

I don’t hunt. Why? Because I couldn’t bring myself to kill something. Here in Pennsylvania, we would be overrun with deer if it wasn’t for hunting. This is partially because we pretty much hunted Mountain Lions and other large predators out of existence last century.

I don’t believe that the OP’s SO’s position is morally defensible. Eating animals that have been raised in questionable conditions and slaughtered on an assembly line seems to me to be more outrageous than somebody sitting in the woods shooting deer.

I grew up on a farm in central Illinois. My father hunts. He has ALWAYS hunted. As a child, HIS father told him tha he couldn’t have a rifle until he reached the ripe old age of ten. Ten.

When I was six years old, he killed a deer, gutted it, and hung it upside down from a tree in our back yard. My sister and I both had nightmares for weeks. Oddly, my dad never killed another deer, because he felt badly about it for some reason. He does, however, continue to get up at 3:30 in the morning during duck, goose, and pheasant hunting seasons.

My feelings about this are mixed and contradictory. My dad was raised in a sort of “hunting culture.” It’s simply something he DOES. He enjoys it, and gets a kind of pride from eating what he kills (when he can get my squeamish mother to cook it) that one can never get from providing food in another way.

However, a couple of people here have already touched on my admittedly weak objections to this “sport.” Whoever it was that used the word “wussification” hit it right on the head. I object to the sort of “gun culture” that follows hunters. In this space and time, I think there are detrimental affects of considering it “manly” to shoot and kill. Regardless of what ELSE this sport provides, it also constitutes violence. Violence is NOT a necessary right of manhood. It doesn’t make one powerful or macho, and gun ownership does not make one strong.

That’s not to say, as someone mentioned, that all hunters are men. I’m just making a point about the cultural issues involved in hunting tha don’t necessarily have to do with food acquisition and consumption.

The other issue I have problems with is what my dad calls wildlife conservation. When I rib him about his hunting habit, he tells me he has to do it because otherwise, there would be an overpopulation of whatever it is he’s blowing to bits tha day.

In my opinion, there is some very bad logic used in justifying hunting this way. Why is there an overpopulation of pheasants? Well, because my father et al shot all of their natural predators and took up all of their natural habititats for farming and other things, thus pushing larger populations into smaller areas.

Not only that, but natural predators are most likely to get weakened, sick, or otherwise slow or non-viable pheasants to feed on. My dad, however, shoots the ones that are quickest to take off when rooted out. This FURTHER screws up an ecology that he’s tampered with in the first place.

This “wildlife” conservation theory is only a way to justify something they want to do. If it were REAL conservation, the natural predators could be introduced, more land could be set aside for habitats, etc.

Even though it may not seem that way, I really don’t object to my dad’s hunting. He enjoys it, it’s part of who he is, and that’s that. But I have to admit to a little uneasiness at seeing a loved one with a gun in their arms. Or toting a bloodied bird by the legs and grinning. It may not be a particularly logical uneasiness, but I find it’s there anyway.

-L

not to wade in here (I’ve had my fill, personally, of hunting debates), but just an aside question to Freedom: what do you think of the ‘comprimise’ I worked out with my (now ex) husband:

  1. He could go hunting whenever he wished, for however long etc. I wouldn’t complain about the $$, time/whatever.

  2. He should not come home and tell me alll about it, nor expect me to relish our home being decorated with dead animal parts (I tolerated a single set of antlers some where, but the dead pelts, heads, tails etc. that decorated his living room with his 3rd wife wouldn’t have flown with me)

  3. He was welcome to all the venison he could eat but if he ever tried the ‘oh, she’ll never know it’s really venison, I’ll just tell her it’s steak’ routine, then he could look forward to my own little ‘surprises’ (“oh, you don’t like garlic in your vanilla ice cream?” )

Not all hunters subscribe to your so called “gun culture”. Your objections seem to stem mostly from an inability to comprehend how anyone could partake of this activity that makes you “uneasy”.

This is not particularly true or practical. I don’t think we want to be introducing mountain lions or wolves into suburban neighborhoods to control deer populations. It gets rather expensive and generally impractical to chemically (birth control) limit populations. Furthermore not all population control is needed strictly because of loss of predators or habitat. Here in Minnesota, we now have more wolves (and hunters) than since the days of the early settlers. Yet the state is producing record deer herds. Other factors such as mild winters and forestry practices that unintentionally provide better cover and sources of food are contributing also.

Perhaps you have the wrong image in mind when you run the numbers. In some cases, that may be quite true. However, in many other cases I think the original description holds. I knew of a number of families who used rifles and shotguns that were decades old, handed down through the family. Perhaps they would replace or add one in each generation. Sometimes there was only the one rifle and they took turns.

Let me give an example of what I thought of as the typical “semi-subsistence” hunter in the area in which I grew up. A father and one or two sons, who either hunted on their own land (and their neighbors’) or had friends and acquaintances who had huntable land. Since the trip to the area they hunted was either on foot (if their own land) or a short drive, so their gas costs weren’t any more than the normal weekly costs. While there was a fairly respectable number of hunters who did spend a lot of money on getting prepared for the season as far as guns ammo and aother supplies went, it wasn’t the rule for the subset of hunters I refered to in my previous post.

Currently license fees in Pennsylvania (resident) are $20 for basic hunting (adult)while junior basic hunting license are nine dollars, in either case a “doe tag” for antlerless deer. It’s not a large outlay of cash now, and was almost certainly even less 20 years ago.

I certainly don’t think that all, or even a majority of all hunters are a part of this “semi-subsistence” group, but that they are a sizeable minority and can, locally, be a majority of the hunters. For many people in this situation, it’s an important resource that was used to stretch the amount of money they had, much like we stretched my parents’ income when I was a child by planting huge gardens every year.

My situation was a little different, although my brother did hunt and trap a bit. While I lived on a small farm, it wasn’t really a “semi-subsistence” farm, but a “boutique” or vanity farm. My father was one of the few people who commuted into Pittsburgh every day, working a white collar, middle management job for a Fortune 500 company and coming home to the “hills and hollers” at the end of the day. Growing up, I sort of straddled the differences. While my family didn’t hunt, (with the exception of my brother for a couple of years), it sometimes seemed as if almost everyone around us did.

Does that mean there is no corresponding “respect” for those in between? There certainly was from me, and within that sub-culture in which I grew up. Although there were exceptions, by and large, most people considered it to be a completely normal and respectable way to help make ends meet. If more people who are normally opposed to hunting, viewing it more as “sport hunting” without a truly beneficial impact, were able to learn that there was a large segment of the hunting population who didn’t do it primarily for sport and enjoyment. That isn’t to say that they don’t enjoy the activity, on the contrary, most of the people I knew looked forward to it with a lot of anticipation and enjoyed the experience immensely. But their strongest motivation for doing it as seriously and dilligently as they did was because of the financial benefit to them.

Wring,

I think that compomise is just fine.
In addition, consider that last post “beer impaired”:slight_smile: I do think you need to do what you want (within limits), and not restrict or be restricted by your spouse. I don’t think telling her to “stuff it” is appropriate in almost any circumstance.

I sympathize with you’re SO but don’t agree with her. I’m the wife of a hunter. As a matter of fact, I have trouble thinking of any male member of either side of the family that isn’t a hunter. Would I do it myself? No. Do I have any objections to my husband hunting? None, as long as he cleans and eats what he shoots. And brings some home for me. Venison in brown gravy with mushrooms, mmmmmm.

I have a much harder time morally when I think about feedlot cattle than when I think about deer. The deer at least live clean, low environmentally impacting lives and have a fighting chance to live to old age. Some of them get lucky and are never shot. Beefcattle have an inevitable end, and spend their life being a big drain on environment and natural resources. And after centuries of hunting, deer are proliferating, not endangered, so you aren’t damaging the environment by eating them.

Non-hunters might see this as kind of crazy, but I’d liken my husband’s hunting to communion. There is ceremony involved in hunting the same way every year and repeating the same behaviors as his father and grandfather, who were very definitely subsistance hunters. He has a much deeper understanding of the source of his meat, the sacrifice necessary to get it, and the balance of nature then I do. Owning a gun and shooting a couple of animals a year haven’t turned him into a savage. He’s a pretty peaceful guy, especially after hunting season, when he’s gotten out of the office and into the woods for a week.

And hunting can be necessary to thin the herd. To those who argue that we just need to bring back the natural preditors, I’d argue back that I’d rather not live with the nuber of animals necessary to get rid of the deer in Wisconsin. Wolves and bear would find it much easier to hunt my neighbor’s diary cows, or my dogs and cats, then they would some of the deer around here. And unhunted deer aren’t guaranteed a care-free life in the woods. The more of them there are, the more likely that they will die of starvation, disease, or car accident. Rmember, that deer in the headlights look did not originate with Dan Quayle.

You could also argue with your SO, that the odds of you getting your deer with a bow aren’t anywhere near 100%. Even the best hunter spends a lot more time sitting around then he does gutting out trophy bucks. You get your time in the woods, and she may never have to deal with the dead carcass issue.

In reference to what level of disgust or admiration do semi-subsistence hunters receive:

Subsistent and non-subsistent tends to polarize the distinctions between different types of hunters. As you correctly noted, there exists an identifiable population of hunters who fail to meet either the strict definition of subsistence or the strict definition of non-subsistence. I wouldn’t say that those in the middle are neither admired/respected nor viewed with disfavor either. I’d suggest that the evaluation of those folks though varies with the specific individual (militant, far-right, anti-government poacher versus politically noncommittal, law-abiding citizen hunter) and also varies with the group doing the evaluating. In your case, these folks living on the margins were viewed more sympathetically than they might otherwise be by a different group of people.

In an effort to respond somewhat quickly, I’ll offer up this stat without a proper citation. I seem to recall a figure of 12% representing the current percent of all Americans who self-report as hunters. The methodology behind the survey which generated this number left open the interpretation of hunting to include all those who we might consider sport, subsistent, semi-subsistent, etc. (BTW I recognize that sampling error might not include people on the margins because they are inherently difficult to sample in many ways). Nonetheless, I think 12% is a pretty reasonable figure to go with. My experience in studying hunting and hunters is that very, very few actually do fall into the non-subsistence and semi-subsistence camps. Overwhelmingly, hunters are hunters by ‘choice’ rather than by necessity. My conclusion is only somewhat anecdotal, but, I think, still valid. Yes, there are semi-subsistent hunters and perhaps even a few truly subsistent hunters around today; however, within that 12% of all hunters nearly all of them would be of the non-subsistent, recreational variety. So, how then should these folks be evaluated?

I’ll respond to my own question here by reiterating a point I made earlier in the thread. I think the pleasure one takes in the hunt should not be considered the same as pleasure in the kill. This pleasure is simply expressed first upon the event of the kill. The death of an animal is generally the necessary conclusion to a successful hunt. Thus, if hunters are genuinely concerned with what it means to be a good (in the ethical and skillful senses) hunter, then I think they should be evaluated positively.

**
Yeah, that’s what I figure. My husband hunts and used to try to rationalize it as “free” meat. Uh, no honey, you spent money on bullets, gas, plus wear and tear on the truck, plus $25 (or so) for the license, plus $125 for the butcher to cut it all up nice and neat for you…(not even mentioning the initial outlay for the gun and camouflage clothes)…so, no, it is in no way “free.”

He likes the “thrill of the hunt” and tracking a deer. I guess you could say it’s like a hobby. An expensive hobby, with the benefit of food.
I can’t understand Mnementh SO’s reaction of not “needing” to hunt since we can go to the local Safeway and get food. I’ve never seen venison at my grocery store. I could go to a butcher, but hubby likes to do it, and it’s fine with me. IIRC, he is only allowed one deer per season. As kaiju said, you could also go into the reasoning of “thinning the herd.” If hunting were completely outlawed, the deer population would rise dramatically. They can be rather destructive, and many would starve to death. Deer vs. car accidents are really bad. The deer is usually badly hurt, but runs off (suffering), while the car is totalled.

We almost always have venison in the freezer. We would never try to pass it off as beef to an unsuspecting guest. We always specify Moo-Cow burgers from Bambi burgers.
But that’s as far as it goes. Once again, I agree with wring…no deer heads on the wall, no stuffed critters on stands. I’ll eat 'em, but I don’t want 'em looking at me.

Quote sexywriter

In my opinion, there is some very bad logic used in justifying hunting this way. Why is there an overpopulation of pheasants? Well, because my father et al shot all of their natural predators and took up all of their natural habititats for farming and other things, thus pushing larger populations into smaller areas.


Sorry Hon
You’ll have to come up with another species if you are going to talk about anti hunting.
The pheasant was introduced to the US for the purpose of hunting.

It also confounds the issue when we consider that pheasants are non-native to North America–they were introduced for the purpose of being a game bird.

Like several others here, I don’t hunt but I understand why guys like hunting because I do enjoy fishing. There is nothing like experiencing the thrill of making a connection with a significant other creature like a 20 lb chinook salmon deep in the salt chuck and communicate through the fishing line as he lunges deeper and farther for a hundred yards making my reel scream and bending my rod double, only to turn around and race back towards me in order to spit out the hook, forcing me to reel in so fast my wrist aches. As in nature the predator sometimes loses his prey and that salmon played the game of life.

On the other hand, you can buy a farm fresh salmon at the supermarket. Know that this salmon was raised in an ocean pen jam packed with other salmon on the west coast where tidal flows allow for constant oxygen replenishment. Know that these salmon are transported as tight as sardines live in large converted fishing vessel holds where oxygen is continually bubbled through the sea water that encompasses them untill they reach the processing plant. Tell me which scenario you would prefer if you were a salmon.

Or how about the birds? As a teenager, I caught chickens on barn floors in the evenings under coloured light. The chickens were jam packed and I easily slid my open fingers under their bodies until I grasped 3 chicken legs in one hand and four in the other, and walked over to the trucker to present 7 chickens which were jammed in wire cage crates to go to the slaughter house. These “fryers” were only eight weeks old. They never even experienced sex or open air. They never saw the sun.

The pheasant however…
Or how about comparing the life of a bull elk with that of a steer

Like several others here, I don’t hunt but I understand why guys like hunting because I do enjoy fishing. There is nothing like experiencing the thrill of making a connection with a significant other creature like a 20 lb chinook salmon deep in the salt chuck and communicate through the fishing line as he lunges deeper and farther for a hundred yards making my reel scream and bending my rod double, only to turn around and race back towards me in order to spit out the hook, forcing me to reel in so fast my wrist aches. As in nature the predator sometimes loses his prey and that salmon played the game of life.

On the other hand, you can buy a farm fresh salmon at the supermarket. Know that this salmon was raised in an ocean pen jam packed with other salmon on the west coast where tidal flows allow for constant oxygen replenishment. Know that these salmon are transported as tight as sardines live in large converted fishing vessel holds where oxygen is continually bubbled through the sea water that encompasses them untill they reach the processing plant. Tell me which scenario you would prefer if you were a salmon.

Or how about the birds? As a teenager, I caught chickens on barn floors in the evenings under coloured light. The chickens were jam packed and I easily slid my open fingers under their bodies until I grasped 3 chicken legs in one hand and four in the other, and walked over to the trucker to present 7 chickens which were jammed in wire cage crates to go to the slaughter house. These “fryers” were only eight weeks old. They never even experienced sex or open air. They never saw the sun.

The pheasant however…
Or how about comparing the life of a bull elk with that of a steer