Hunting

Great Debates
1

Here are the sides, as I see them:

[list=A][li]Some people are against it because the are vegetarians and don’t eat meat in general.[/li][li]Some people are against it because the think it’s cruel to kill ‘Bambi’.[/li][li]Some people are against it because they are anti-guns and guns=hunting.[/li][li]Some people are pro-hunting because they are poor and live in extremely rural areas where hunting feeds their families.[/li][li]Some people are pro-hunting because it’s a fun and interesting thing to do on weekends.[/li][li]Some people are pro-hunting because they view hunters as a replacement for natural predators and see hunters as part of the natural cycle of life[/li][li]Some people are pro-hunting because they like seeing big racks and stuffed bears in their den.[/list=A][/li]
If it makes a difference, my views are a combination of B, D, and F.

My father is heavily involved in a group called Pheasants Forever, which is similar in scope to Ducks Unlimited. While the organization is made up primarily of hunters, it’s mission is the preservation of habitat friendly to pheasants, i.e., tall, undisturbed grass. [If anyone is interested, A Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold is recommended reading by PF, and an ecology prof I once had compared it to Walden Pond, although I wouldn’t go THAT far.]

Prince William County, VA, a suburb of DC, has more that 1000 deer-related auto wrecks a year. Personally, I’d call that a public health hazard. Because of the large influx of humans natural predators have left the area. Yet this county allows only limited hunting, and IIRC only on the nearby military base. While a small part of the problem is too many houses, the county is also afraid of animal rights activists, who quite often disrupt deer hunting in the Northeast. I cannot quite figure out why it is better for a deer to die of disease, starvation, or a car than a bullet, but there it is.

I’m sure someone is going to come back with “Yeah, but some hunters just wound the deer and let it go off to die!!”. to that I respond with “Yeah, but the majority of hunters is responsible and track down the deer for the kill shot!!”.

People around my area leave some standing corn for deer to feed on during the winter, or make or purchase feeders for wild game birds. IN MY EXPERIENCE, people in suburbs and cities do little more than put up song bird feeders, if that.

So. Is hunting immoral? Should it be made illegal? Is it acceptable?

2

Well, as long as the animal is skinned and gutted, the meat eaten and the hide put to use, then I guess it’s OK. Otherwise it’s just cruel, and even worst - wasteful.

Oh, yeah - and as long as the hunters know what they are doing, and aren’t a bunch of beer-guzzling, untrained yahoos, blasting away at anything that moves. (I’m not referring to all hunters, just a certain amount of them).

Oh, and Sandyr, tell your dad that the best way to capture pheasents is to put little pieces of hair through raisens, and scatter them around. They get cought in the birds’ throat, and can’t move.

3

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention in this OP that I’m SO tired of this view. It’s like saying that all whites south of the Maxon-Dixon are illiterate racist rednecks.

Huh? Just a thought, but whatever you’re talking about I think it’s unethical :smiley:

4

I admit that I’m slightly prejudiced. As someone who’s done some military service, I don’t think anyone who hasn’t gone through Basic Training should be allowed a firearm.

Tell that to Roald Dahl.

5

I haven’t been through Basic Training, and I shoot both handguns and rifles very well. I don’t see why you should have to serve in the military to own a firearm. That’s like saying you should have to go through medical school to own aspirin.

6

FTR, I agree with D and F. All the rest of the options piss me off.

7

I learned more about gun safety from my parents and grandparents than from my Company Commander, so that view won’t wash with me, Alessan.

8

I told you I’m prejudiced, Sandyr. But for months I had it pounded in my head - always check your weapon, don’t fire without an order, don’t load without an order, don’t fire without an officer and a medic present, always make sure your weapon is clean and working smoothly - so I’m somewhat wary of people who haven’t passed the same training. I accept the fact that you, personaly, obey similar rules, and I wouldn’t mind shooting with you. But how can I be sure that every gun owner is like you?

I wouldn’t trust myself behind the wheel of an 18-wheel truck, so why should I trust another untarined individual with a gun? They’re no less dangerous.

Oh, and James - but if you wanted to practice CPR, and start sticking IV needles in people’s arms, I’d recommend a course. That’s a closer parallel.

9

**

What does one have to do with the other? My father and both grandfathers all went through basic, were career military, and had combat experience but apparantly they didn’t share your attitudes. There are some real knuckleheads who make it all the way through basic so I don’t see it as any indication of character. I’m willing to bet that I’m just as safe with a firearm as anyone who made it through basic.

Marc

10

**

So outside of the military you’ll never fire a round? Unless of course you bring someone to order you to fire and a medic to make sure everything is ok.

**

Just because someone isn’t in the military doesn’t mean they’re incompetant. A lot of us were taught by our fathers how to be safe and how to shoot straight. In fact that’s been in this neck of the woods since England began colonization.

Marc

11

Whoa, guys. I wasn’t saying anything about you, personally. I just think that some kind of mandatory training should be required before you issue a gun license. Or at least a simple written and practical exam - nothing more difficult than the one needed for a driver’s license. I mean, guns are about as potentially dangerous as cars, so why not have similar criteria? It won’t really limit peoples’ freedom, and it will help prevent a certain amount of unfortunate accidents.

Darn. This is turning into a pro/anti-gun debate. Enough!

I declare this hijack ended. Back to hunting.

12

sandyr, I’m going to amend your list to include an H, or perhaps just a modifed D–some people are pro-hunting because they eat meat, and they understand that having someone else do the dirty work and sell it does not make it “better.” Anyone who thinks hunting is cruel but buying meat is not should take the time to go see a slaughterhouse in operation. (But I’ll warn anyone who’s never seen one–it ain’t pretty.)

Other than that, I’d agree with D and F, though I’ll point out that E is not incompatible with them. As for G, I’ve never understood that mindset, and I have no respect for hunters who waste good meat and just want trophies.

13

Alessan:

In my state and evry other one I’ve hunted in, you are required to complete a hunter safety course before you are issued a hunting license.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that they are necessarily qualified, but nor does the completion of basic training necesarily prove competence in a hunting situation, which is of course quite different from combat training.

As one who was owned and operated firearms since adolescence, and indeed qualified as Expert with the .22 before he was 16, I find the idea that I’m unqualified to own a firearm in your opinion kind of silly.

I know what you mean though, there are a lot of Yahoos with guns and a six-pack out there on opening day. I’ve had to ask some personally to observe my no trespassing signs. I was even once shot at by mistake by a trespasser despite my Day-Glo jacket and hat.

Irresponsibility has more to do with it than the lack of extensive training IMHO.

14

I bowhunt and agree with opinions D and F. I use all the meat, hide and everything I can from the elk and deer I harvest. I think it is a cardinal sin to harvest an animal and waste the meat and hide.

15

Yes, in my state, as well. As you wisely note, completion of the course does NOT mean safety. 2 weeks after completing the hunter safety course (with a perfect score), my son hurt himself with an arrow. Both he, and his father (the avid hunter) thought it was an ok idea for him to practice his shooting while home alone. It wasn’t.

Sandyr, if I may, you don’t include my stance. which is:

I’m against hunting because it allows the armed take over of public lands by a smaller portion of the public, to the exclusion of the rest of us. The hunting season started at the end of September, and the various seasons (bow hunting, early firearm, late firearm, regular firearm, musket etc.) go straight through til the first week of January. which, by my calculations is more than 3 months (more than 25% of the year) AND completely takes in the entire “color” season.

In the last “hunting thread” I participated in, the hunters all aligned and said over and over “but it’s only for a few weeks” and “it doesn’t occur until after color season” (see above) and “you overstate your risk” (see Allessan’s )quote:

**

My sister taught at an elementary school that was next to public hunting land. The kids aren’t allowed out during recess during hunting season. There ARE repercussions to others. To ignore them or discount them is not right.

Amen to that. You are free (IMHO) to hunt on private property WITH the owners permission (please don’t bother coming to my door, it’s been posted for 30+ years “no hunting”). as long as you take precautions to keep your kill shots away from others.

16

Hunting can be a beneficial thing, and I have no objection to meat eating, etc.

However, I cannot fathom why anyone would find it ENTERTAINING to KILL THINGS.

So, if you like to hunt: keep the fuck away from me.

S

17

I am vegetarian, and would never hunt or kill anything myself. But I think that humans survived to get to this point in civilized history by eating meat, and I have only been vegetarian myself for about six years. I will not judge others about killing and eating meat, as long as it is done in as humane a manner as possible. And I don’t try to convince others to believe or feel the same way I do.

I do also know that there are several hunting related accidents and deaths every year in Minnesota alone. Three years ago, a young girl was shot in the head by a deer hunter in her Motley, Minnesota home while practicing her clarinet. The bullet went right through the walls of her home. I would imagine that not as many accidents happen with bow-hunting, and this would also seem to be more sportsman-like to me.

So, I guess of your whole alphabet in the OP, sandyr, the only ones I would totally object to are E) in the sense that I don’t think killing for the sake of killing should be considered to be “fun” (which is probably not what you meant by that) and G) because I don’t think animals should be killed for the sole purpose of being a decoration on someone’s wall (which probably isn’t what you meant either).

18

**

People have always hunted in American forest. I don’t think it excludes you or anyone else from enjoying the woods.

[uote]**
My sister taught at an elementary school that was next to public hunting land. The kids aren’t allowed out during recess during hunting season. There ARE repercussions to others. To ignore them or discount them is not right.

[/quote]
**

Then it sounds like the state needs to rexamine that hunting area don’t you think?

I fail to see why hunters shouldn’t be free to enjoy public property like everyone else. A lot of people can’t afford to hunt on private land. Why exclude them from something they enjoy?

Marc

19

Marc. Why ? for the same reason we don’t have hopscotch areas set up in shooting ranges. Flying bullets are dangerous for humans, too.

When you make statements like "
Then it sounds like the state needs to rexamine that hunting area don’t you think? " it seems you understand the rationale for seperating hunters from non hunters.

20

I understand that in some places it is to dangerous to allow hunting. Around school buildings for example. I don’t recognize that hunting away from civilized areas poses a great danger to anyone. Nor do I think it excludes non hunters from using the forest. Most forest are rather big and hunters aren’t every where.

Marc