Sure, if I woke up with a penis tomorrow I’d be horrified. But only because I would be so unaccustomed to having one. I think I’d eventually get used to it. Maybe I would never fall in love with it, but I don’t think I’d rush to the doctor to get it removed.
Because I feel that way about my body now. I like the parts of my body that are functional and useful–like my legs and my hands. But my breasts? They don’t do anything for me. I’m totally meh about them, but I’m not about to rush out to the doctor to get them lopped off. The same with my vulva. It’s an ugly appendage, IMHO. But I don’t hate it enough to get it swapped out for something else.
Granted, I am unusual in that I don’t have any use for sex.
Well, I AM a woman, so yes, I’ve managed these things.
I would actually be more comfortable being male. I could painlessly have children, I could wear comfortable clothing everywhere, I could have greater upper-body strength, I could enjoy status and social privilege–it’s the obvious practical choice.
No amount of recognition of the benefits of being male is going to make me male. I don’t sit around lamenting my gender misfortune, since there is nothing to be done about it. Wanting to be something and actually being it are two distinctly different things.
I actually am somewhat uncomfortable with my male body, but only because I feel it isn’t masculine enough. Like many men, I wish I had a thicker beard, bigger arms, and so on. When I look in the mirror, I am mildly dissatisfied. Well, what if I looked in the mirror and saw a female body? I suppose I would be very unhappy.
My point is, I think most people have in their minds an idealized body image that they want to attain. Where does this image come from? Why might it differ from one person to the next?
Speaking as a guy, and picking up from what I said earlier, it’s always seemed odd to me the way so many men seem to worship their penis. Hell, even several men in this thread mentioned there’s several other body parts they’d give up first. It seems to me that a lot of that has to do with the fact that we, as a society, see the penis as so very central to maleness. Sure, I wouldn’t want to lose mine, but more because I don’t want to have an incomplete body and I’d like to have children one day. If I were suddenly a woman, other than shock, I really don’t think I’d care that much other than having no clue how to use those parts from that side.
And for the sex part, meh… presumably I’d still be attracted to women, although I could imagine that various hormones could alter my brain chemistry in unpredictable ways. But, not unlike my gender, my sexuality isn’t something I intrinsically identify with who I am, but rather it’s incidental to me. Strong sexuality is just as confusing to me as strong gender identity. So, for instance, I certainly see and appreciate beautiful women, but I’ll often see some of my male friends seem much more… let’s say, distracted, by them than I am. In fact, the only time I really feel particularly distracted by either gender or sexuality at all is when I’m at the gym, but I attribute more of that to the fact the gym itself, with all the energy, physical grounding, and testosterone and other hormones, and the simple fact that gyms seem to be much more rigid about gender stereotyping than pretty much any other place.
And none of that isn’t to say I’m uninterested in sex either, but it’s just not something I put much thought into outside of a relationship. Hell, gender isn’t something I pay much attention to until I actually become aware that I’m attracted to someone. Perhaps that’s why I’m often oblivious to women hitting on me? Regardless, as such, the idea of having sex as a woman would be confusing to me, but more in the sense that I’m just so used to the parts I have. After all, at least to me, the whole idea of sex is about physical intimacy much more than penetration. After all, two women generally can’t do that, and as I understand, many gay men don’t either. Even between a man and a woman, it seems to me that the specifics of sex aren’t the same in any relationship. Different relationships will have all kinds of varying roles and amounts of various sexual play.
That said, I would still sympathize for anyone that’s transgender, because it has to complicate all of that significantly. Even though I support their rights, I have no interest in dating a transwoman. Obviously, part of that is that I want to have my own biological kids at some point with my future partner. But also, like with the aforementioned roles, even if I didn’t want kids, it seems to me that the prospect of really having no idea how to sexually engage someone like that is just such a massive turn off. That is, even if I were a woman, I might not really know how to use my parts, but I’d still know how I’d want to engage with a woman, but in that regard, that would be the same regardless of who I’m currently attracted to. There’s going to be a significant onus on the partner of a transgendered person, and regardless of whether they’re generally straight or gay, those expectations, heavily driven by biology, are going to be difficult to overcome.
As I understand, though, aren’t a lot of transgendered relationships with other transgendered people and/or with others they already knew ahead of time? It seems the former significantly overcomes that problem, as they both have a real understanding of the others situation and the latter, with an already established relationship, it makes the other person more willing to put forth that effort. But really, for me, meeting someone new for the first time, all things being equal, it just makes sense to choose someone who isn’t, not unlike choosing to date a woman without kids, with matching education, or any number of other types of traits.
I think (based in part on what trans people have said about themselves) that often the sense of gender is more or less independent of inclinations vis-a-vis behavior, appearance, attire, interests, taste, etc.
Particularly with trans men, since in principle women have a significant degree of social freedom to enjoy “male” hobbies, work in “male” jobs, wear “male” clothes, and so on.
That’s a good question. I’d personally love it if I were thinner and more muscular than I am, though, as I mentioned above, it really isn’t a priority to me and I’m not really interested in putting in the kind of effort that would be necessary for me to have that kind of body. If the circumstances of my birth and upbringing were different, it could entirely be possible that I’d want to possess a more stereotypically female body. The main hangup for me, I guess, is the difference between wanting to look/act female and insisting that one therefore is female. I have absolutely no problem with someone who wants to dress or look or behave in a gender-atypical fashion, but the nomenclature that gets attached to it bothers me for some reason.
If I woke up a man it would be a big problem for me, but really more because of society than because I would feel I had the wrong body.
I’m quite feminine, almost always in dresses or skirts, make-up, the lot. I feel this would not change if I were a man. I’d probably be a cross-dressing gay guy. If my waist to hip ration changed too, I might start wearing trousers, but I’d still be a total dandy at the very least. This would suck, because it would affect the my chances on the job market and how people responded to me in general. Being a super feminine possibly skirt-wearing gay guy would also make me a much more of niche proposition in the dating market, which I would NOT like. Basically, I’d cause a shit load of practical problems. However, I don’t feel that having a penis, no breasts and a certain type of face and whatnot would essentially change who I am. I also don’t feel that having different parts would feel “wrong” sexually. I mean, it’s hard to judge, I’m just doing a thought experiment, but I’m just not feeling this “me with a penis, doing man-sex is impossible”. So what I’m saying is that it would be difficult socially in which that would really suck, but I don’t think it would, for me, have to be rectified surgically.
However, that’s easy to say when this hasn’t happened to me. Also, I want to make it clear that I totally support everyone else’s right to do whatever makes them feel happy in their own skin.
This seems to be the way most men feel about it. Despite being a man, though, I’ve always had a hard time relating to it.
I’m attracted to women (for the most part). I like the look and feel of female bodies. What would be better than to look in the mirror, and see the same kind of body that I’m attracted to? I mean, I don’t particularly want to make my own male body more feminine. That, it seems to me, would turn me into a freak. I wouldn’t like my body more that way. But I would want to replace it wholesale with a female body, sure.
Although, come to think of it, some of the most masculine aspects of my body are the ones that I dislike the most. I hate having a beard. If I could get rid of it forever, I would. Which is a shame, because I look a lot better with some hair on my face than without.
Something else I’m wondering about: I keep saying that I would like to transplant my mind into a female body. But how much of my personality is simply a function of my body? If the gender-swap fairy granted my wish, and I woke up as a woman tomorrow, how different a person would I be? Would I suddenly start behaving differently in shops? As it stands now, I can’t get out of a shoe store fast enough. Would that suddenly flip?
I’m also a cisgender woman and was not a particularly “girly” child, but as far back as I can remember I thought of myself as a girl. I don’t think it was a particularly big deal to me or anything, but I was a girl and would have corrected anyone who mistook me for a boy. Had someone tried to tell me that I wasn’t really a girl because, say, I was crazy about dinosaurs and had zero interest in baby dolls then I would have considered this either very stupid or very upsetting (depending on how much respect I had for this person). I was a girl and I liked dinosaurs, so either girls could like dinosaurs or my entire understanding of myself was wrong.
As an adult then if someone challenged my gender I could point out both that I am anatomically female and that my life experience is that of a girl/woman. There are important things about my life that wouldn’t even make much sense if I weren’t a woman (or at least perceived as a woman). For instance, my undergraduate degree is from a women’s college. But I don’t remember now why I thought of myself as a girl when I was a small child or what being a girl meant to me at the time. I had limited life experience back then, and I am pretty sure my childhood gender identity had nothing to do with my anatomy. Had anyone challenged my right to call myself a girl then I don’t think it even would have occurred to me until late childhood that being a girl had anything to do with my “privates”, and at that age I had no obvious secondary sexual characteristics.
I can’t say I “get” what it’s like to be transgender, but if I considered myself to be a girl by the age of 3 or 4 (which is about as far back as I can remember) then I guess it makes sense that a transwoman could consider herself to be a girl by that age as well even if she was born anatomically male.
I honestly think penises are totally sexy, not to mention vastly more convenient, and I would be perfectly happy with that plumbing option. I like my vagina just fine, but I don’t find the prospect of having sex as a man at all unappealing. I totally get that most people feel differently, but, yes, I really think penatrative sex would be great, as long as it wasn’t with a woman (vaginas really don’t do it for me, except mine.)QUOTE]
Pretty much this for me too with the exception of that if I had a penis I would prefer sex with a woman. And I would definitely know what to do with it. After all, I’ve been paying attention for the last 36 years.
Oddly enough, I suspect that if I woke up as a woman, with womanly parts, I’d probably want to have sex with a man, even though I have no inclination that way now. Maybe I’d become bisexual? Anyway, I don’t think it would bother me much, aside from the unexpectedness of it. It would be fun (or at least interesting) if I could do it on a temporary basis.
I disagree slightly with those who say the difference of opinion in this thread is mostly a matter of some cis people not noticing that things feel “right” or “normal,” while trans people are necessarily more aware when things feel “wrong” or “off.” I’ve spent most of my life feeling that something was wrong or off about myself, and as a result I’ve questioned things like my sexual orientation and gender identity (as well as whether I’m autistic, ADD, bipolar, etc.–in the end, as near as I can tell, it’s just a case of what Douglas Adams described as “perfectly normal paranoia,” only a little more self-directed).* I’ve generally felt like an unmasculine man and uncomfortable with a lot of what our culture defines as masculinity. Like AHunter3, I often identified with the girls’ behavior in school more than the boys’. Unlike him, I had a more liberal family and was never led to believe that this was “wrong,” so I never had a sense that it made me a girl. I was always clear that I was a boy (and then a man) and never questioned it beyond the general casting about for things that might be wrong with me I mentioned above. But at the same time, it never felt more innate or central to my identity than my hair color.
It didn’t take much questioning really, more like a quick check: “I wonder why I feel different and awkward and don’t understand or get along with my peers. Gay people talk about those things; maybe I’m gay.” [Imagines making out with a guy. Checks for erection.] “Nope, guess that’s not it.” [Goes back to thinking about girls.]
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee]
Like AHunter3, I often identified with the girls’ behavior in school more than the boys’. Unlike him, I had a more liberal family and was never led to believe that this was “wrong,” so I never had a sense that it made me a girl.
[/quote]
Actually, it wasn’t my family (who were 50% oblivious and 50% supportive, and except for disapproving of silliness never made me feel like I was exhibiting inappropriate gender behavior); it was other kids at school along with teachers and Boy Scout leaders and messages I got from television and movies and whatnot.
Glad to hear your family was at least somewhat supportive of you!
I’m sure I got some of the same messages from school and culture (especially growing up in the South) but they tended not to stick for some reason. I grew up in the 80s, when children’s tv was full of messages that it’s OK for girls to play sports and for boys to cry when they’re upset, and (I guess because my parents taught the same thing) I never questioned those, or even realized that there was a reason those messages needed to be taught (and that no one, for example, felt the need to explain that boys could play sports, too). I remember being scolded once for being rough with my little sister because she was a girl and smaller than me, and being shocked that anyone thought it made a difference that she was a girl. I actually refused to believe that women were weaker on average than men.
I occasionally wondered as I got older (and still do, I suppose) if I’d have been happier as a girl/woman, but it never occurred to me to think that I might actually be one. I sometimes thought I was more similar in personality to some girls than to most boys (which was not actually true overall, but certainly in some respects–like disliking sports and cars), but my actual maleness was simply a fact like having two feet.
I strongly suspect that my sense of my own gender was mostly learned, since it doesn’t feel any different that things I know I learned about myself, like the color of my eyes and hair, and I know I was taught from before I have any memories that I was a boy, and that boys have penises and girls have vulvas.
I can intellectually understand that someone might be taught the same lessons and know with the same kind of factual certainty that it doesn’t apply to them (or conversely, could have a strong sense of identifying with their apparent gender even without being taught to), and I have no doubt that people who claim this are telling the truth. But I don’t quite grok it.
I was a really cute kid with big blue eyes, a very high voice (I could imitate Snow White until I was about 13 and my voice dropped two octaves nearly overnight), and my mom thought long curly hair looked adorable. Until I was about middle school age, people regularly mistook me for a girl, even complimenting my mom on how pretty I was.
Yeah, I’m totally not a girl. If even causal comments like that — which were quickly revised when I corrected them — pissed me off when I was a kid, I can imagine that I’d probably be a complete mess if my genitals, dress, and cultural expectations were counter to my internal state. And that’s exactly what transgender people have to deal with.
I don’t really know why, but many adults don’t seem to remember what it was like to be a child, and how surprisingly early some elements of what we usually consider very grown-up preferences develop. The reason “playing doctor” even became a trope is because there are an awful lot of kids who experiment with sex very young. And no, there does not need to be sexual abuse in the household for kids to get the idea for it.
According to my memories of my own childhood, the development of sexual preferences, personality traits, and yes gender identity takes place pretty damn early. I was probably only about 4 or 5 when I first became aware of aspects of my own makeup in those areas that wouldn’t be fully realized until my late teens or early 20s.
I have no reason to think that I’m a special unique snowflake who developed decades early. I think many people just either forget or choose to ignore their childhood memories. Societal beliefs probably play a role in this, pushing some to willfully forget because the idea of kids thinking about sex stuff is “too icky” for them.
I’m not sure we can even tell what we would be like if we were to change genders. From what Una talked about, it seems a lot of things change when you put in those hormones. Plus, as I thought about that, I considered how women have lower testosterone than men but are perfectly fine, while low testosterone in men can cause depression.
So it’s not just an external change, like I assumed it would be when I was a kid, considering it for curiosity’s sake and more prurient issues. And both (like, I bet a female orgasm feels really, really good.)
But, now, it seems like having your identity be off in this way is a significant issue. You don’t really hear of people who think of themselves as one gender but have no problem presenting themselves as the other one. And I do suspect that we care more about our gender identity than we know, as suggested upthread.
I think it’s a lot less confusing if we speak of changing SEXES if we are talking about the physical morphology. Changing one’s sex might conceivably change the gender as well, but most of the people who change their sex are changing their sex in order to get it to match up with their gender, or, to be more precise, to match up with the expected sex-gender pattern instead of falling outside of it.
Not often, not yet. We’re a smaller sub-minority. Except, again, I would not say I think of myself as one gender but present myself as the other [gender]; instead, I would say I have a sex and a gender and they are not the expected combo. I do not wish to be perceived as a cisgender male or as a cisgender female. I’m a male girl (or male woman if you prefer) and physical transitioning is not something I have any interest in, any more than I wish to seek out personality-changing therapy; neither the “male” part nor the “girl” part is wrong.
To Echo Smapti’s comment, what does that mean? I intellectually can understand there is some biological difference when brains are scanned, but what does “feel like and identify as a man” mean??
It means feeling like and identifying as a man. I have yet to see a case where somebody who identifies as a man doesn’t want a flat chest and a penis. Beyond that, what it means ‘to be a man’ varies from culture to culture and person to person. It is not a case of " I like to do A, B, and C. Men do A, B, and C. Therefore I am a man."
But that’s what’s so circular about it for me. You have people saying that it’s culturally constructed, that a man can be sensitive, that a woman can be tough, etc…so then what is it about? At the end of the day, is it just about the body parts you want?