"I always felt I was a boy/girl."

In My Humble Opinion
101

There’s a strategic choice that a person makes when setting out to explain something like this to other people — sometimes a very conscious one, sometimes less so, but I think it’s always there to some extent.

Because you’re trying to describe a social reality to them. By “social reality” I mean a real phenomenon that is composed in part of how people perceive things (and therefore how they behave in response to those things). And in trying to describe that social reality to them, you’re essentially trying to get people to reconfigure how they perceive things, which in turn would change how they behave, which in turn would change the social reality, which is why you’re trying to do it in the first place.

(With me so far?)

So you start off with your own internal sense of what that social reality is, and you know from the start that your view of it isn’t identical to the people you’re trying to communicate with. You will be trying to lead them from a worldview that they currently hold and over to a worldview that you want to convince them to embrace instead.

The strategic part of it is that there are usually a multitude of cognitive chains going from Worldview A to Worldview B, a multitude of conceptual pathways of logic and example and generalization and rethinkings and renamings and so on, and you want to pick the ones(s) that:

• people will be best able to follow (can’t be unduly complicated);

• people will be relatively willing to follow (ideally it fits the mental rethinking you’re trying to get them to do into an already-existing backdrop of similar mental rethinkings that a lot of people have already signed on to);

• won’t create a bunch of conceptual byproducts — notions or concepts or attitudes that will have unfortunate implications for you or for other who would then oppose what you’re trying to do here

————————

OK, then. Yes, folks, given the goal of arriving at a world where people in general accept sissyboy nonmasculine girly feminine male-bodied people without holding contemptuous derogatory dismissive hateful hostile etc attitudes towards us, which is not the current societal norm, I could seek to get there via…

• appeal to the notion that sex-specific norms are bad; that as feminism pointed out in the 60s and 70s, sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose and all that, and if it is OK for female-bodied people to exhibit a series of characteristics and be accepted as viable people, it should be equally and identically OK for male-bodied people to be the same way; in short, this would be seeking to get rid of the whole barrage of prescriptive generalizations about males and females. This would involve getting rid of sissy-hatred, it would involve uncoupling it from homophobia (challenging the social notion that a feminine male-bodied person is any more likely to be gay, or that a gay male-bodied person is any more likely to be feminine, and getting people to see them as separate considerations), and it would also involve decoupling feminist theories about the unfairness of all these generalizations and polarizations from the notion that doing that uncoupling benefits women and threatens men and that this is a women’s issue and that men at best can play a sort of supportive cheerleader role in it.

OR

{{ ran out of time, have to go; will finish later }}

102

If you believed all the stereotypes I should be the gayest man alive, but I’m not. Honestly though I never felt particularly “manly”

103

{ continuing from post 101 }

… OR

• establishing one more marginalized/minority identity and place it, conceptually, alongside other “identity politics” activisms within the LGBTQ continuum; instead of attempting to get rid of the prescriptive generalizations about males and females, this tactic would seek to join the voices of transpeople and genderqueer people (in particular) seeking to create a split between biological sex and social gender, appealing to the notion that however much it may be true that men have these characteristics and women have those, it is not necessarily and inevitably true that all male-bodied people are men nor all female-bodied people women, and hence different standards and norms ought to apply to those who belong to a gender other than the one normally assigned to their biological sex. There is already a strong push by genderqueer and transgender people to uncouple sexual orientation from gender, which I’d be joining. I would also need to uncouple the idea of being a gender other than that associated with one’s sex from the expectation that therefore one would wish to modify one’s sex in order that the correct gender be anticipated, and would have to cope with the tendency on the part of some trans activists to deflect any significant attention to biological sex and/or to subsume sex within gender.

104

I think it’s worth stepping back and reminding ourselves that those of us who don’t “get” gender identity issues are almost certainly wrong.

Gender doesn’t feel any different to me than other biological or social characteristics whose significance was learned, not innate, but that doesn’t mean my feelings are accurate. The nature vs. nurture debate can’t be solved by introspection, and this is a good case in point.

Science used to think that gender was learned, and that therefore children with ambiguous, mutilated, or malformed genitals could be raised as whichever sex was most convenient (usually female.) Many years ago, I read the biography of David Reimer, who was raised as a girl following a botched circumcision that left him without a penis.

His case was central to shifting the scientific paradigm and discrediting much of the science that had been done up to that point, which had supported the “nurture” side. He strongly rejected his female identity from early on, and transitioned back to living as a male as a teenager.

Presumably, whatever caused David to identify as a male happened in his brain, and it was not some natal memory of being born with a penis. There is no reason to doubt that someone born with female genitals could have a brain that “knows” it is male just as strongly as David’s did. AFAIK, that is still the scientific consensus today.

Whether TG people tend to identify with mainstream gender roles (assuming they in fact do tend to) because they are reacting to the negative experience of being forced to adopt the wrong gender roles, or because there is a spectrum of gender identity and only those who have the strongest identification with one gender are motivated to transition, or because only those socialized into strong gender roles are motivated to transition, or because of some other reason or complex of reasons is (to the extent trans people are willing to engage in it) a legitimate discussion and debate. The fact that some of us have trouble imagining their experiences is also worth exploring, from both sides. But I don’t think any of us is in a position to challenge either the experiences of trans people (or anyone else, for that matter) or the science that tells us that the phenomenon is real and is likely every bit as biological and innate as what genitals someone has.

105

Also, for the reasons I mentioned above, I strongly object (well, as strongly as someone with no real skin in the game can) to the phrase “biological sex” or “physical sex,” or “biologically male/female” when referring to the type of genitals someone has, and “preferred gender,” or some such when referring to how they feel. The brain is every bit as biological and as physical as the rest of the body. We may not know for certain that gender identity disorder is neurological, but I think we have a pretty good idea. I think we should use “neurologically male/female” and “genitally male/female” when we need to distinguish.

106

Wrong that we don’t get it?

I don’t doubt that some people have a strong sense of gender identity, and I agree with you that it must reside in the brain, and is probably a result of pre-natal hormones. Anecdotally, I know several cis-women who strongly identify as women, and the same for some cis-men. But I don’t. And I find it interesting that apparently, lots of other people don’t, either. And I think our experience is as valid as the experience of trans people who feel a strong disconnect between their brains and their visible sexual characteristics, or of the cis people who feel strongly gendered.

107

I don’t mean this to be snarky (seriously), but I think it’s funny that just on this page of this thread we have two posters saying they don’t have much of a gender identity…but have chosen usernames for themselves that explicitly reference their gender. Even though this is a text based forum with no avatars, a lot of us have usernames that at least suggest our gender. It would be easy to choose a non-gender-specific or gender-bending username, and some posters do, but it’s very common to choose a name that reflects one’s gender identity even though this isn’t required.

108

I’m going to have to politely decline to do that. I do not know that I am neurologically female; I identified as one of the girls as long ago as 2nd grade but I have no knowledge and no opinion as to whether or not the reason I did so was a neurological difference in my brain.

I like “sex” and “gender”. I know not everyone’s on board with the distinction between the two but sex refers to the morphology (genital, plumbing, bodyparts) and gender refers to the identity.

109

I guess I was a little unclear there. Wrong in our (well, my) hunch that gender is learned and not innate. Our experience is certainly valid, but it doesn’t necessarily tell us anything about the origin or biology of gender (though it may).

'Scool.

When you talk about your gender, you seem (if I understand you) to be referring to the social role you identify with. As you say, that may or may not be neurologically based, and seems, in your account of it, to be closely tied up with your early socialization. Many trans people, in my experience and understanding, downplay socialization as a factor in their gender identity, and describe it as something inborn and innate, and science suggests that this is in fact, at least often, the case. If so, it must be neurological (unless you believe in a soul or some other metaphysical element).

So there are at least three things (Is anyone NOT confused, yet?): genital sex, neurological sex (which most transgendered people say is at odds with their genital sex, and science seems to support this), and gender (which is the social role one chooses, typically in alignment with their presumed neurological sex, but not always, as may be in your case).

Of course, there’s also chromosomal sex, which may align or not align with any of the above.

And I deliberately avoided the term, “identity,” since that seems like it could be yet another thing: you, for example, say you identify as a male woman, which combines your genital sex and gender (while saying nothing about your neurological sex). Others may identify as non-gendered, or as a trans-woman, or—well, anything. “Otherkin” is at the extreme fringe when it comes to identity and probably (IMO) doesn’t correlate precisely with anything biological (at least with regards to the specific identity claimed), but it would be hard to argue that it isn’t an identity of some sort or another (though perhaps not gender identity, at least always).

Anyway, that’s how I think about it at the moment. Others are free to disagree. (But they’re wrong, of course!)

Hopefully, everyone is now thouroughly and totally confused and uncertain about what to call anyone, putting us on equally rocky and unsteady ground, finally achieving the eternal dream of absolute equality. You can thank me later. :cool:

110

Nicely done :wink:

Yeah, I’ve been on several trans boards/groups and I agree that that’s the typical trans perspective. We’re allies (transgender and genderqueer folk), but not 100% on the same page.

111

Perhaps we need to, since people care, and we don’t have strongly gendered voices. :wink:

112

Yeah, even in a text-based forum there’s often an expectation that people reveal their gender. If they don’t, there will be times when others will either ask or just make an assumption about it. IIRC it’s even been suggested here that there be a “Gender” field like the “Location” field. So I agree that gender identity can be a much bigger deal to others than it may be to the individual.

However, if you’ve got a ready answer to questions like “Are you a man or a woman?” (and since your username includes “gal” I’m assuming you do) then that’s your gender identity. It doesn’t mean it has to be a big deal to you or even that you’d necessarily be unhappy with a different gender identity, just that you feel “man”, “woman”, or possibly something else is a correct or at least acceptable label for that aspect of yourself. I’m a cisgender female, but identifying as a woman doesn’t mean I wear a big pink bow on my head or go around singing “I Am Woman”. It just means that I believe myself to be a woman and describe myself as a woman to others when the subject arises.

(What follows isn’t really directed at you, puzzlegal, I’m just on a roll here.)

For transgender people it gets complicated not because simply having a gender identity is unusual, but because they have a gender identity that many others will not readily accept. I’ll confess that it used to bother me a bit when I’d hear about transwomen who seemed to be doing the equivalent of going around with big pink bows on their heads or even saying “I always knew I was a woman, because I love pink bows so much!” After all, I’m a woman and I’m not into pink bows, and no one’s going to tell me I’m somehow less of a woman because I don’t fit some dumb stereotype!

It’s since occurred to me that transgender people probably feel like that all the time. If I were a transwoman then I might wear a big pink bow just so others could tell that I considered myself to be a woman. I might even feel it would be dishonest to do otherwise (just as I would in reality feel dishonest if I were pretending to be a man online). But even with a big pink bow proudly tied to my head then there would still be plenty of people making it a point to tell me that I wasn’t really a woman because I didn’t fit their image of what a woman should be. And I figure that would be pretty lousy.

113

OMFG, I’ve been reading that as “puzz-legal” since she joined! I figured maybe she was a lawyer who likes crosswords. :smack:

114

Yes, it’s an acceptable label for me. I have a female body, with female hips and breasts. I’ve been pregnant and given birth to children. I was reared in an age that didn’t know about transgender stuff, and that wasn’t a choice I ever seriously considered. And I don’t have gender disphoria, so I never had to. I expect people to think of me as female, and I’m fine with that.

Dan Savage talks about people who might be homo-curious “rounding themselves to straight”. Basically, I feel that i lie somewhere between the extremes of masculine and feminine, and it’s simplest to round myself to female. And I think a lot of people are in-between, truth be told. I think gender is a continuum, and very few people really fall all the way to either end. Most people are closer to one end or the other than I am, but I don’t feel like I’m all alone here or anything.

Using a female name was a conscious choice, one that I considered for a while. The first on-line chat site I used much let you give a different name every time you posted. I don’t think it even remembered the name within a session – I think you had to type your name with every post. So I used a lot of different names. Some male, some female, some neutral. But when I had to pick a single name for some sites (like this one) I decided it was simpler to go with a female name. If I want to talk about biographical stuff it is sometimes relevant. (wanna compare child birth stories?) Even on some political topics, it’s relevant (I am talking about my body when I talk about abortion, not my partner’s body.) And when it’s not relevant, I hope people won’t care too much.

115

Survival. I guarantee that if I had undergone my transition but tried to look androgynous or too “butch” it would have hurt my career. Despite how we may like it to be, the vast bulk of society needs to place us all into two buckets, labeled “Female” and “Male.”

I didn’t need to wear skirt-suits and dresses for my own benefit, although I dress well and like the way I look. I needed to wear them as a client-facing executive at a major corporation.

116

Cool thing is, it still works as “puzzle-gal”!

117

Well, no. The fact that you admit your formed a gender identity shows that you have one. The fact that you are unaware of it only means you are unaware of it.

The same with AnaMen. She’s one of those Dopers who made a big deal explaining she was female (when someone called her male while she was upset). So she has a gender identity that she cares about.

You guys tell me it doesn’t bother you, but you both have been bothered by it. You were bothered enough by being labeled as male that you chose female. And AnaMen was bothered enough to tell people she was female.

It may not be very strong, but I allege that’s only because your gender aligns with what people think your gender is. Because I used to say the exact same thing you do. It took a ton of introspection to become aware of my gender identity.

And I think this is important as I don’t think you can do more than tolerate trans gender individuals if you can’t understand gender identity.

The only people who do not have a gender identity are by definition androgynous. Neither you nor AnaMen appear to be. And it’s frustrating that you want to present your ignorance as just as valid as those of us who have fought that ignorance in ourselves.

118

I have thought about this a great deal more than you give me credit for. The first time I felt like I was really female was when I gave birth. But that feeling has since passed. I am frequently mistaken for a male when my body isn’t visible. If I don’t expect to have continued contact with the person, no, I don’t bother to correct them. On a forum like this, I do expect continued contact.

And like Una Persson, I observe that people want to classify me on a gender binary. And life is easier if I let them. And if I must round to one end or the other, I may as well round to the gender that matches my body, and my narrative (which includes having done traditionally female things giving birth.) But if I somehow sprouted a penis tomorrow and everyone thought i looked like a guy, I’d okay rounding to male. I’d be a kinda effeminate guy, but I believe I could play that role about well as i play the role of gal.

And I have done more than tolerate the transgendered. I provided a lot of emotional support for a close friend who recently came out as trans. I still do. I interact regularly with several other trans people, and despite my trouble keeping everyone’s pronouns straight, I support their choices as how they identify themselves and they prefer to be understood. (Which are quite varied.)

I believe that there are people with a strong sense of gender identity. My daughter is such a person. I am not.