Let me just take the opportunity to mention once again.
We are making war upon Iraq in order to liberate the Iraqi people, and to bring them freedom and democracy. Now the pro-war side wants to take away from Americans the most fundamental freedoms: freedom of speech and the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Once again I am forced to contemplate the inadequacy of the rolleyes smiley. :rolleyes:
So let me get this straight sven, you bitch and moan about how you don’t like it when others assume you are dumb with no justification other than that they disagree with you, then you turn around and say that the majority of Americans who support our effort in Iraq are dumb.
You sir, are a first class moron, and I am not basing that assessment on your opinion about the war in Iraq.
FYI, she’s a “miss,” not a sir. Moreover, I don’t think Even Sven is a moron as much as she is a sweet, naive, and terribly earnest college student who has much to learn about the world.
Cite, please. And note that ‘right to lie around in the middle of the street’, ‘right to speak without anyone disagreeing with you’, ‘right to speak without anyone boycotting your products because they find your speech redundant’, ‘right to assemble and set fire to things/throw rocks at people/break stuff’, ‘right to have people believe everything you say even when you can’t back it up with facts’, and ‘right to have the government do exactly what I want because its what I want even though I don’t have a majority of the voters or some kind of legal authority supporting me’ are not the same thing as the freedoms you listed that the pro-war side is trying to take away. Did some rock-throwing idiot get arrested, or some celebrity discover that their now-former fans don’t like what they said? Too fucking bad.
Riboflavin Just a little food for though.
[ul]
[li]Some pretty strong allegations that the Seattle police are limiting the right to assemble. Say what you will, I was there and it sure looked like it to me.[/li][li]Posters on this message board asking protestors to shut up.[/li][/ul]
Just to pull a couple of things out of the air.
Now I know that you are probably just trying to make the point that there is not some government backed conspiracy to take away First Amendment right (although nuances of that might be worth talking about) and that 5 time champ may have been taking a bit of rhetorical license in his/her post. However, I still think that the point is well made that the folks that are buying the line that we are over there to liberate the Iraqi people are (in some cases) also only too happy to tell me to shut up about it when I peacefully assemble with like minded people and speak my peace.
This is not to say that I have a right to be heard and not debated. I hope that you get my point.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Binarydrone *
**Riboflavin Just a little food for though.
[ul]
[li]Some pretty strong allegations that the Seattle police are limiting the right to assemble. Say what you will, I was there and it sure looked like it to me.[/li][/QUOTE]
And the evidence that this is supported by the pro-war side? Rember, the claim was “Now the pro-war side wants to take away from Americans…”, not “gosh, the seattle police arrested some assholes who marched without a permit”.
Crap, that’s just an incredibly whiney article now that I look at it. “Protesters recalled large columns of police in black riot gear, snipers on rooftops and of being trapped by columns of officers from Seattle and other departments who blocked their escape… ‘It was like a cattle call — herding animals instead of treating people with dignity,’ said Alice Woldt,” boo-fucking-hoo, the police stood near your protest? And that’s an infringement of your right to protest? And ohh, some latte-drinking bum named Tim G Young was laying in the street, refused to comply with police directions and instead tried to order the cop around, then was arrested and charged with the crimes he comitted? Oh poor baby, the cop didn’t say please to him, his rights are so fucking infringed. Wait, which amendment requires the cops to say please to you when they ask you to stop breaking the law? I must have missed it.
Oh boo-hoo-hoo. Someone excercised their free speech to say something you don’t like, and you’re now o-fucking-pressed? “The Man is keepin’ me down! He excercised his own freedom of speech and told me I shouldn’t be saying what I’m saying! He shouldn’t say that!” Are you oppressing the posters in that thread by saying that they shouldn’t be saying what they’re saying, or is it only oppression if someone does it to you?
The point I’m making is that the claiming that “the pro-war side wants to take away from Americans the most fundamental freedoms: freedom of speech and the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances,” is fucking absurd and idiotic, and you’re helping me out by citing as evidence an article that whines about how the seattle police are violating the ‘fundamental right’ to have officers say ‘please stop breaking the law’ instead of ‘stop breaking the law’ when you’re breaking the law and linking to a thread where people say something you don’t like as evidence of your oppression.
Pardon me while I fail to cry at the horrible, horrible oprression you suffered when someone else excercised their right to free speech. So, what you’re saying is that you have a right not to have anyone to tell you to shut up? That free speech is only for you, not for people you disagree with? You just keep supporting my original post; you say that it’s fine for you to tell other people they shouldn’t say something, in fact you come right out and say that other people saying things you don’t like to hear (like “shut up”) is oppression. Freedom of speech does not mean ‘freedom to say whatever you want while other people stay silent and don’t say what they want because its not what you want to hear’.
Your point appears to be that the right to have the police say ‘please’ to you when they tell you to stop breaking the law in Seattle is being violated, along with your right to tell other people that they shouldn’t say certain stuff without them telling you that you shouldn’t say certain stuff. Not a very good point, is it?
By the way, even sven, those who say that you are an idiot for opposing this war are ignorant assholes. If anything, I would expect MORE protestors after the shooting starts and people start dying over there.
What gobear said. As much as I might agree with even sven that this war is a terrible mistake, I cannot bring myself to go march with the antiwar folks and represent myself as part of the “no blood for oil” crowd. That’s a simplification that strays into sheer stupidity, and has nothing to do with the very good reasons why this war is a horrible blunder.
And, believe it or not, with extreme reluctance, I follow gobear’s lead and agree with december’s statement above. We never should have started this war, but now that it’s on, the only possible way out of it is through it. Assuming it doesn’t turn into another bottomless tarpit like Vietnam (which I think is highly unlikely), the only workable solution is to wrap it up quickly and get on with the business of convincing a rightfully angry world that our motives weren’t really as transparently selfish as they seem to be. My opposition to this action mostly rests on my total lack of trust in the Bush Administration doing the right thing when it’s done (either because they will screw it up through sheer blind ideological arrogance, or because they never intended to do the right thing in the first place), but to simply stop now and totally pull out would be far, far more damaging. I am very, very angry at the administration for putting us in this position, but that doesn’t mean I don’t see the situation realistically.
What a fucking mess.
Ribo My facile answer is that I am most certainly not defending the right to violent protest. I am defending the right to peaceable protest. I am defending he right of Hollywood stars to protest the war, just as idiots likeCharlie Daniels have the right to support, even profit from the war. [And I really liked the CDB back in the 70’s before went he too country.]
BTWThe Dixie Chicks have had the #1 Country album for at least 2 weeks now. I’d buy a DC album, except that I despise C & W music as much as I despise Bush. [our lost-the-popular-vote president not the musicians]
** Ribo** I am not saying Bush has suspended the Bill of Rights, OK. :rolleyes:
But The St Louis Post-Dispatch prints letters to the editor almost daily by pro-war idiots who hold that anti-war protestors shouldn’t or don’t have the right to protest, and they were doing this before our troops went into combat.
Amen. Just a couple of days ago, I covered one of the anti-war marches here in Melbourne and my job was to interview protesters and also people who hadn’t protested. Among the gems: (paraphrased)
To be fair, some people had very well thought out opinions. But I would guess that the majority of people on both sides don’t have a clue, other than what their parents, their favourite newspaper, or the latest e-mail glurge tells them.
What Cervaise said. I was against the war, but now that the shooting as started, I want it over as soon as possible. But this war is not going to be anywhere near as easy as we were led to beleive.
What a fucking mess, indeed.
Well, I’ll third the ‘fucking mess’ sentiments! 
If it’s not over in a month it’s going to be a lot more than a mess.
As for the occupation, I’m not too sanguine based on the conduct of the war so far.
These guys bungled the diplomacy on the ramp up to the war, and now they’ve badly underestimated the ruthlessness of the enemy. So far, there is no reason whatsoever to be at all optimistic about the next act in this unfolding debacle.
I have run into only a couple anti-war proponents who actually had looked into the issues and could form a non-emotional, non-metaphorical, non-slogan-filled argument for why they were against this war. Those people I respect. The rest of them are idiots. Unfortunately, stupid people usually mistake themselves for intellectuals, so it’s very difficult to explain to the idiots that they are, in fact, idiots, and not intellectuals who disagree with me for well-thought out reasons.
You have not posted your logical arguments as to why you believe that war could have been averted, so I am unable to judge whether you are an intellectual with a different opinion from myself, or just an idiot.
[Point break]
“I am an FBI agent”
[/Point break]
Riboflavin said:
A sizeable majority of peace advocates in the United States:
have not participated in a “die in.”
do not support censorship of anyone who disagrees with them.
have not participated in nor supported rock-throwing, glass-breaking or setting fire to anything.
do not support mind control (as in opposing the “right to have people believe everything you say even when you can’t back it up with facts”)
Don’t think that the government should always be against the majority.
Do support minority rights.
Have not been the ones to organize the first boycott of this war. (I do, however, support the right for anyone to boycott.)
These are accusations that are hurled at us frequently (with the exception of the last one) as if we are all participants in one mob.
What unfair accusations are frequently made against the war advocates?
I suppose most pro-war people support running down protesters in their eighteen-wheelers, huh?