I am against this war. I am not an idiot.

The BBQ Pit
1

I am against this war. I could give you a bunch of reasons. But thats not what this thread is about.

It seems like everywhere I look, people are hurling insults at anti-war people. Anti-war folks are called naive idiots at best, and traitorous terrorists at worst. Never have I heard the intellectual capacity and intentions of a group so maligned.

I am not stupid. I am not uninformed about the situation. Throughout my life, I’ve read up quite a bit on the Middle East- mostly somewhat pulpy memoirs, but also a fair amount of history, a lot of social commentary and quite a bit of the great literature of the area. I read at least of the front pages of a several newspapers every day, and follow current events with great passion. I’m not an expert, and I’d never claim to be. But I am not some kind of horribly uninformed troglobite parroting off slogans fed to me by Communists. I really resent being told that I am an intellectual subhuman.

Sure, there are a lot of people that don’t have a coherent plan for what they’d do if they were in charge. There are a lot of people using simplistic ideology and simplistic sloganeering.

But those people exist on both sides. Most Americans are pro-war. Most Americans wouldn’t touch a newspaper with a ten foot pole. Most Americans knowledge of the Middle East comes from watching Not Without my Daughter and Lawrence of Arabia. Most Americans will not be able to come up with a coherent and brilliant explaination for why they feel the way they do- drawing upon a detailed historical knowledge of the area and a deep analysis of policy- whenever a reporter shoves a mic in their face.

And yet people whos entire understanding of the world comes from watching twenty minutes of TV news on weeknights feel like they can call me a blathering idiot with no comprehension of world events? Folks, everyone has an opinion, but few people are experts. Lets recognize that!

If you disagree with my views, fine. If you think I’m an idiot, fine. But if you think I’m an idiot because you disagree with my views, I’m gonna want some sort of proof that I actually am an idiot and you are not.

2

Is this where I climb on the “poor me” bandwagon for vocally expressing my views that other don’t agree with?

Ok then, I am not a “murderer” or “baby-killer” and I resent that assertion, probably more than even resents being called an idiot. And I would also like proof that I have ever killed anyone, even by proxy.

3

Saen, I’m dealing with someone who calls me a murderer because I’ve protested the war. His blanket statement is that protestors get soldiers killed. No qualification, no respect for me or my position… and this is someone whom I’ve known for a few years.

My last response to him was an invitation to call or come over to my home and call me a murderer to my face, instead of hiding his cowardly ass behind e-mail.

4

Yeah well hurling rocks is better?

How about ripping down 9/11 memorials? How many pro war people are assaulting cops?

Get back to me on those.

Some anti war people have a very good arguement and make valid points, most don’t. I figure it to be about the same with the pro war people.

5

Well, don’t call him an idiot unless you have proof or we may get more of these threads. Kind of sucks when people get in your “face” and acuse you of doiong horrendous things because the montra sounds good to them don’t it?

6

Some people seem to think that democracy is a great thing, except when you disagree with them.

7

You realize that you’re complaining about people generalizing about you and your education on this subject and then you turn around and do the same?

8

What does being called an idiot or murderer have anything to do with disagreeing with democracy? Is you version of democracy that everyone can say whatever they want and no one can disagree or say what they want as a rebuttal?

9

You’re wrong. :stuck_out_tongue:

10

I don’t thbink antiwar folks are idiots per se–there are some very good arguments why this war should not have been started–but that most of the vocal antiwar folks have espoused idiotic arguments and positions, likew the jerks in one GD thread who want lots of coalition casualties in order to force public opinion against the war.

I’m reluctantly prowar, especially now that hostilities have commenced. If we do not finish the job we started, we will have wasted lives and resources and left in place a greater danger than ever. At the same time, the US must recognize that it is sowing a legacy of hatred that must be fought with diplomacy and reconstruction of Iraq. Uf we go to Iraq and don’t put in the money and time to improve the lives of Iraqis, we will be guilty of making the same mistakes that have come back to haunt us before.

Well, one need not be an expert, but one should be informed. I grow tired of the know-nothings on both sides. “Let’s kill us some towelheads” is as wrong and annoying as “I hope American soldiers get killed.”

I’ve been reading a lot, too. In additon to the New York Times, The Washington Post, Time, and The Economist, my reading lais has included
Target Iraq : what the news media didn’t tell you, Norman Solomon

The reckoning : Iraq and the legacy of Saddam Hussein, Sandra Mackey

The war over Iraq : Saddam’s tyranny and America’s mission
Lawrence Kaplan

*War on Iraq : what team Bush doesn’t want you to know *, William Rivers Pitt,

and

The demonic comedy : some detours in the Baghdad of Saddam Hussein, Roberts, Paul William

I read both liberal and conservative sources in order to figure out what I believe and to ensure that I am not succumbing to political bias.

11

Democracy: “I disagree with you.”

Asshole-ocracy: “You’re an idiot/murderer/anti-American because I disagree with you.”

See the difference?

12

Just a question…what is that based on exactly?

13

LOL

no I don’t, they still disagree, that is democracy in action. Freedom of speech is integral to our form of democracy. And me saying whatever they want, including unfounded insults, is part of that democracy even if you or I disagree.

Democracy: “I disagree with you.” “You’re an idiot/murderer/anti-American because I disagree with you.”

Asshole-ocracy: “I don’t like what you said so it is undemocratic.”

14

By the By,

I do not approve, nor endorse such forms of democracy when they are unfounded, even though I subscribe to Patrick Henry’s definition of democracy. But just because I don’t approve , or endorse such, I still wouldn’t claim that my disagreement paints them as undemocratic.

See the difference?

15

“me saying whatever they want” should be "them saying whatever they want. :smack:

16

I spent the last half hour or so looking around the Internet for statistics, but havn’t found anything. Mostly, I am basing it off a study that was pretty widely reported a while ago that most Americans cite their primary source of information as television news, and that it’s finally reached the point where half of adult Americans don’t read newspapers. I wish I could find it…

17

I see a big difference between having opposed the war before it began and opposing it now. Now that we have committed to the war, albeit wrongly in your opinion, do you not agree that US failure to win the war would lead to some terrible consequences?

BTW you are obviously intelligent and well-infromed, but that doesn’t mean the the average anti-war person is more knowledgable than the average pro-war person.

18

Here are the results of the Pew Research Center’s 1998 study on American Media habits, have not had a chance to look over it in detail, but it seemed interesting enough to share.

19

Why ?

Your view makes sense if Saddam is someone others aspire to be (and by seeing off the US those others will gain courage) but the whole premise of this campaign is that Saddam is the most problematic of three – the Axis of Evil. Ain’t no one else in the picture.

Who do you think would be, say, 'encouraged’ - assuming those are the consequences you mean - by the US not “winning” this war (whatever your definition of that might be ?) ?

20

Some of the name-calling by people upset with protestors is eerily similar to what occurred during the Vietnam War. You’d think we’d have learned something.

I can also do without the name-calling and uninformed venom issuing from the other camp.

Thanks to gobear for his post. It expresses my current feelings on the matter of being reluctantly pro-war now that the mess has begun.

I am trying to imagine a big, dumb trilobite with muscles…:smiley: