I am re-wiring my house.

To get you up to speed: Bought this house 2 years ago. Mistake #1, which I take responsibility for, was not getting a complete and dedicated electrical inspection. Mostly out of ignorance, I assumed that the inspector we used would do a pretty thorough inspection himself. He pointed out a few minor things electrical-wise, and did advise that he did not do a complete electrical inspection…but even then I assumed that obvious, glaring issues he would point out. Not the case, not the case.

He was worthless in general, for the record. But again, my responsibility.

So basically as soon as we took possession of the place, started finding things. Switches that went nowhere. Why was there no bulb in either of the hallway light fixtures? Oh, well it’s because they don’t work. Replacing ceiling fans, the boxes were astounding messes of splices and junctions. I knew I needed to do something, but hey, re-wires are involved and expensive.

Two straws recently broke the camels back, though. I have known for a while now that the previous owners just created random branches wherever they needed them. It’s a mess. But after Christmas I was up in the attic to put the tree and some boxes up there, and there is a junction box sitting on top of the insulation. Just hanging out, not attached to anything. Chilling, if you will.

“Well shit,” says I, “that probably wants to be positioned otherwise.” So I follow one of the cables and THERE is another square junction box BURIED under the loose insulation. Not attached to anything. Just going for a little cellulose swim, if you will. Not cool. Not. cool.

So yeah, most of that had to do with the garage area, so I have been wanting to mess with that for a while since there’s only one receptacle in there. But then I realize just how spidery that mess gets. It goes…more or less everywhere. Garage door opener is on it, the lone receptacle in the garage is on it, a receptacle in the adjacent living room, the fan/light in the living room…and it goes somewhere else form there. I believe it also goes to the fans in two of the bedrooms. It might also to go the light fixture at the bottom of the basement stairs and the back porch light. I can’t figure out where else the exterior receptacle on the deck comes from, so it very well might be on the same circuit.

The today, I wanted to simply replace one of the single-bulb ceramic fixtures in the basement with a receptacle in which to plug a fluorescent fixture. So this is what I discovered:

First of all the circuit in the basement that the light fixtures are one doesn’t even originate in the basement. It comes down from above in the void around the sewer vent. It is the supply that powers both bathrooms (they are back-to-back). Who knows what else it does while it’s up there. But once it gets down here, it goes to several single-bulb fixtures, before it splits off and goes back upstairs to a wall receptacle in a bedroom and in the opposite direction goes up to somewhere else. Could be the mystery hall lights, could be a receptacle. Hell if I know.

Almost forgot…every circuit is on a 20A breaker. Annnnd I have yet to find a single scrap of 12 AWG wire. It’s all 14. Some grounded, some now…you know. No big.

So I must remedy this. No way can I afford to pay someone, so I’ll be doing it myself a stage at a time. Probably end up having to pull about 10 fraking permits to do it like that, but oh well.

Step one is to diagram this fucking mess so I know what I’m dealing with. Then I can decide what SHOULD actually be.

Just have to figure out what to do in what order. I have 1 open breaker, to start with. So I think I’ll just do some thinking and figure out what I want to use that for, first.

Anyway. Rambling, but it’s freaking overwhelming. I can do it, it’s not that, just damn. So much and it’ll be such a pain in the ass.

Guess I won’t have to worry about my house burning down, though.

Comment or whatever. I’ll probably update this as I go just to keep myself sane and see if anyone catches a problem.

I’m no electrician, but I’d probably start by replacing those 20A breakers except for where they are needed and appropriate. Easy, obvious stuff first. That alone will make a big difference in your safety factor.

I bought a home just as you describe, and have been steadily replacing everything.

My first bit of advice would be to not bother trying to trace and upgrade the old wiring. Clip it all out at the box and rerun wire from scratch. You will have a lot of secondary cutting and routing many holes in your walls, but you’ll have the confidence knowing that there isn’t some old under-gauged tar-wrapped splice laying on a little sawdust pile hidden in your walls that has been passing amps at near melting point for decades. Ask me about the fun things I’ve found :slight_smile:

Oh, dear, I think we had the same inspector. It even sounds like the same house.

What happened to us: We had a home inspection done. I had lined up a very reputable retired mechanical engineer who was a member of some home inspectors’ professional group. According to what we’d put in our contract, there was plenty of time to do it even though he couldn’t get there immediately. Suddenly REA decides there is NOT enough time, but it’s okay, she can line up another inspector. Red flag #1, and I even kind of sensed that.

But even this incompetent fool, who was a personal trainer hoping to phase into being a home inspector, found some problems and suggested we have someone who knew something about electrical look at it. We conveyed this to REA, who came up with the idea of having the seller find and pay for said electrician. This was red flag #2 but I completely missed that. We asked for an estimate on what it would take to bring it up to code. And we got an estimate, and it was something like $3000, so we reduced the selling price by that much for electrical, and more for other things.

Took possession of the house. Called another electrician in to do the work, and their estimate was…way, way more. So I called the place the seller had engaged, figuring it was their estimate and that’s what they’d do the work for. And they came out.

And it turns out that what the seller had asked for was not, “How much to get this into code compliance,” but, “Write up what you can do for $2,500.” And with that, they couldn’t even get it under $2,500. They actually seemed pretty horrified about the wiring and said they would do the work, but they couldn’t do it for $3,000.

So it’s getting done a little at a time, but there’s no way we can do it ourselves. I keep thinking maybe we could, and then I read about 12AWG wire which I don’t even know what it is, never mind the difference between that and 14AWG. The learning curve is just too steep (also a lot of this is in the attic and there might be spiders in there).

So, good for you for getting it done and doing it yourself. Also, my sympathies. I think there is a place on the internet for bad home inspection stories, and I wish I’d gone there, but on the other hand, I do like my house, weird electricity or not.

ETA: Oh, bonus. We have, I think they are called carriage lamps, that go down the driveway out to the street. The electricians could not figure out how they were wired. We decided we didn’t want to know. They worked…I picture an extension cord buried under the lawn, given the other stuff we found. That is the next thing to crack.

I need to totally rewire and upgrade my electrical service. in 1961, when they put electricity in a house that was already over 100 years old, the ran all the wiring into the attic and down the walls. Not knob and tube - they didn’t disturb the walls at all. Just sunk the wires down through (no firebreaks between the studs) and pulled them out. I’m running 60-amp service, a 55 year old fuse box, and not enough juice to do anything, such as the tankless water heater I wanted to install.

My brother said he’d help me pull new wire, but he’s been promising for years. I don’t have central heat and air - I couldn’t run them on 60 amp service, even if I did have them. I need at least twice as many outlets and enough juice to power a modern house.

StG

Be prepared for the cost of sheetrock repairs.

You really need a plan to run new wire with the least damage to your walls.

You probably know the wires are stapled to the studs. Making it impossible to just tie on and pull a new wire.

You’ll find yourself cutting a wide slot in the sheetrock at each stud. So you can pull those fucking staples and run new wire. Then you get to patch every wall in your house.

This is what most people do.
https://goo.gl/images/3do4Lr

Been there done that and I have the T-shirt. I bought a 50’s ranch with ungrounded circuits. Every circuit in my house is now grounded. Took me two months to rewire, patch and paint.

You need a permit to rewire a house and have to be a license electrician to do this . I hope you know what you’re doing and I wouldn’t be telling too many of your neighbors about this , the city building inspector may find !

Don’t forget AFCI in the bedrooms and GFIC around the sinks.

Also you’ll probably need more wall receptacles. Modern electrical codes require more on each wall. Sixty years ago, one or two on wall was plenty.

Depends on where you live; I do need permits, I do not need to be a licensed electrician.
I have plenty of other replies too…just not even going to attempt from my tablet. Later on the comp.

If this is addressed to me, I don’t have sheetrock in my house, or plaster. My walls are wooden, either plank or beadboard, depending on the part of the house. Not sheets of paneling - the old beadboard was tongue and groove planks. That’s how I know the wires aren’t attached to anything within the walls - they’d have to dismantle the walls to do it.

StG

You have my sympathies as a former electrician. Your attic sounds like a building I had to troubleshoot. Circuits that went nowhere, dozens of junction boxes crammed full of splices, with romex and conduit coming out of every box knockout. Wiring that changed color between one box and the next because someone had spliced together different colors of wire and then pulled the splice into the conduit. The best one was figuring out why two three-way switches would only work in one specific configuration and would trip the main breaker if changed; turned out that someone had wired each switch off a different breaker/bus bar. Massive dead short.

Good luck. Be careful.

In my parents’ house, each circuit breaker controlled a seemingly random selection of outlets and ceiling fixtures in multiple rooms. So if you were starting from scratch and trying to do it properly, would you plan things so that each room is on its own circuit?

Can you afford to get someone in to tell you what to do?

Does the work have to be done by an electrician, or does one just have to certify it?

Our house was built in 1934, and has had three (?) additions over the decades. It has a fuze box and knob-and-tube wiring. USAA won’t insure it because of that, and I had to go with someone else. I’d really, really like to have the place rewired, and have a circuit breaker box installed.

I’m afraid to even get an estimate.

Good luck. I’ve done one whole house re-wire (the house had been heavily vandalized and as much copper as possible stripped from the walls, which left the drywall in shockingly poor condition.) New construction is easier. :slight_smile:

I agree that you should start by replacing the incorrect 20 amp breakers (and seriously, how did any inspector miss that?!) Then I’d go room by room and plan on doing a new circuit for each one. I realize it’s better to separate the outlets from the lights, but in this case I think it would be simpler group them by room for the bedrooms. YMMV, but that’s what I’d do. And, of course, the thirty or so circuits now required for all the kitchen outlets. Plan on tearing out a lot of drywall, and just getting a drywall crew back in every few rooms to fix it. This is going to be a huge pain in the ass, I don’t envy you trying to live in the house during the process.

You didn’t mention, but I’m assuming you already have 200 amp service? If not, now’s a perfect time to upgrade.
A couple of months ago, I was helping my sister with a room addition to her house, and was in the crawl space running a new circuit to the addition. Some months before, she’d hired a real, licensed electrician to add an exterior outlet. Apparently, he outsourced the job to his son. Who had done the following: Spliced into 12 gauge wire with 14 gauge (kept 20 amp breaker), twisted said wires together with pliers, no wire nuts, no electrical box. Connection just hanging loose in the crawl space with a bit of electrical tape wrapped around the connections. Unbelievable.

tl;dr

If you are stringing new romex: This IS important: Use 12 AWG.

The circuit breaker does not protect the devices, it protects the wire.

The usual cheapie tract house has 15 amp breakers because they string the slightly cheaper 14 AWG (American Wire Gauge, if you care) wire.
14 AWG can handle 15 amps
12 AWG handles 20 amps.

Refers get a dedicated 20 amp outlet - 12 AWG, nothing else on the circuit.

I would LOVE to, in addition to replacing the panel…but I have to live here in the process. So I have to figure out where everything goes, because I will have to disconnect and bypass receptacles, light fixtures etc. in the process. I don’t plan on re-using any of the existing wiring. I have everything from the original braid-wrapped to some new(er) plastic sheathed. All going.

I don’t anticipate any drywall repair, though I know that many re-wires make it necessary. The house is single-level, and I have 100% access to the attic and basement. I may spend an assload of cursing time trying to fish up or down, but I don’t anticipate any demolition/repair.

And Renee I doubt an inspector missed that, because I am positive it was never inspected. When I get time later I will list all of the…interesting things I’ve uncovered so far.

I plan on using AFCI breakers. I need to brush up, but I think in the current code AFCI is required in the living room, too? Not 100% on that. There are GFCI in the bathrooms now. They replaced those when they ‘remodeled’ the bathrooms. Which involved putting tile down over rotting subfloor from leaky toilets. Which left no support for said toilets. Which naturally continued to leak. Did you know that sometimes, stacking 3 or 4 wax rings doesn’t fix the problem? I digress.

Careful is the word. Fortunately, I guess, I don’t have to troubleshoot much. My main concern will be not cross-wiring anything when I’m bypassing something else with new wiring. If I have to live with an un-powered something in the meantime, we will find a way.

Going back to Renee’s post on this as well…I will have to try out some ideas on paper, but I think I’ll try to keep lighting on their own circuit and receptacles separate. The reason is that I will be able to (hypothetically…optimally…hopefully) drop down from the attic for switches, and go up from the basement (or down from the cutout with a bellhangers bit) for the receptacles. It might involve more wire, but in bulk wire is cheap. My vague concept now several light fixtures on one circuit, a couple bedroom receptacles on the same circuit. As far as I know, it’s allowable but I’ll double-check all this before I get cracking.

No; I can’t. That said, I have had people tell me what to do before. And, there being a plethora of references, I can also read and follow instructions.

Would I want to go at this with no experience or knowledge? Eh, probably not. Which isn’t to say that it couldn’t be done. There are some more difficult concepts when it comes to electricity. For routine home wiring, though…yeah, it’s not rocket science.

You really just have to remember to keep the wires angled downhill to let the electricity run to the outlet freely.

Don’t need an electrician involved at all. Per the city here, a homeowner can perform their own work. If professionals are involved at all, though, they have to be licensed.

Not ok to use 14 AWG on a 15A for my lighting? I mean, I’m happy to use a 20A breaker and have all my ceiling fixtures in the house on one circuit…not counting the bathrooms (which, silver lining, need exhaust fans badly) I have 9 ceiling fixtures. I don’t have the math in front of me, but they should fit on one…

Oh, someone mentioned the kitchen…fortunately for me, I don’t have a microwave, dishwasher, or disposal. Soooo that makes it a little easier.

No, I probably won’t run them for the next owner. I will wire in a stove hood and exhaust though.

Also, don’t use the back stabs on outlets or switches, unless you like tracking intermittent problems.
Could be worse, my parents bought a house in 1969 with a 15 amp service drop.

His first job was a 200 amp drop and panel :rolleyes:

I buy the outlets that have clamps on the side rather than the back stabs. Easy to use, with positive connections.