Paul, what’s your day to day routine in Saudi Arabia? What would happen if you stopped to talk to a veiled woman on a public sidewalk? Would you be able to shop in the women’s section of a department store to buy a gift for your wife? I’m fascinated by Americans living in a society so opposed to my own perceptions.
istara,
:dubious:
I’ve lived on a Aramco camp for Over 10 years, and believe me the incident you have described didn’t happen since I have been here. These camps are a full of gossip and rumours, most are not true. I haven’t heard of this ever happening even as a rumour or gossip. But I could be wrong, often am.
What I’ve never understood is why they need so many foreign workers over there. Why can’t they train Saudi workers? Wouldn’t this lessen the resentment?
Jojo, as I understand the situation, when the Saudis got all that money, they hired foreign workers to do the work the Saudis didn’t want to do (ditch digging, construction, cleaning, retail counter help, etc.). I don’t have any cites, but that’s what I’ve read. I hope for their sake, that Saudi Arabia’s rulers wake up and start instituting reforms. I’ve read that if it wasn’t for their oil wealth, their exports would resemble the dollar amount of third world countries.
They have tried to Saudize the vegetable/fruit souks, never really worked well. The young Saudis didn’t like the jobs and just didn’t show up.(Arab Newspaper 1-18-03) The Crown Prince said Saudize the Taxi drivers with in six months, then realized that NO ONE would ride with the Saudis, so it will be fazed in over 3 years.
The problem is 50% of the population is under 16. The schools do not prepare the population for the modern world. There has been 90 years of Social Welfare with everything taken care of, so most of the young Saudis want to be paid for not working.
For the cite: Arab News 1/17/03 newspaper it is on line www.arabnews.com. Wrong date in original post.
Also - like in the UAE - the locals are used to a certain standard of wage and seniority of position, there is no way they are going to start roaddigging. Add to this the fact that there’s hardly any of them anyway.
I know a teacher in Abu Dhabi who teaches young locals English as part of their work training (ie they are paid to go to English classes). Half of them just don’t show up.
All this said, UAE young women are exceptionally diligent and hardworking and keen to get ahead. This is perhaps because having a job represents a certain amount of extra freedom for them. Technically, they have equality, but in practice, many families are still very traditional which holds girls back at least in our perspective, (and seemingly from those girls’ perspective too, most don’t seem particularly keen on the babies-and-home-only scenario).
Taxi drivers here earn 1300-1600 dirhams a month (that’s no more than 400 US dollars) and they don’t get housing etc. Labourers get 400-600 dirhams a month. You can’t sponsor your wife to live here unless you earn more than 2500 dirhams a month, so for this reason a vast number of salaries are capped at 2400.
Again, you just won’t see local people working for those wages.
Hola!
Read the Job Information Journal on www.eslcafe.com on Saudi and other Arabian countries. The pay is the best but you have to live there. So there.
But, I have not lived there, so I cannot tell you about the life. I knew an Eqyptian named Muhammed (a rare name) and I will say that he and his mother were the nicest people one could find. There is also a wonderful writer named PJ O’Rourke who once wrote for Rolling Stone magazine who did a flight and tour of Libya back in the Reagan years and he will tell you that Libyan people are also hospitable to the point of giving you the shirt off their back.
But, I do not know. I can tell you about Chinese, because I live here in China.
SENOR
My day-to-day nothing special. People think 'cause I live in the Mysterious East I must have Great Adentures. Not so at all.
I am up at four, and do some e-mail. Get some writing done. Pick up the Filapions at six oh five for the twenty minute ride to work.
I teach four 45 minute periods a day. Do my lesson plans for the next day, drive home. A couple of kilometers in the pool and then I fix dinner.
We have a TV dish, but I rarely watch it. Last night I wathced Hornblower on a DVD.
I go into town (45 minutes) once a week. We have Western-style supermarkets (better than Panama for selection). Once a month or so I have freinds over for a dinner party, maybe a barbeque. I serve wine.
Its the only time I drink. When I run out I call in an order, it is delivered the next day.
I get a month off a year a couple of long weekends to do passport or other business in town.
Not much to it really, I am just ready for a change.
senor - I must reiterate that Saudi is IMMENSELY different from other Arab countries. They all vary in terms of religious conservatism, but Saudi is in a league of its own.
That said, as you can see from the above, Paul still manages to get his hands on the evil “grape beverage” (yes - they call it that on some menus here in the UAE where alcohol is legit, I think to try to avoid offending more devout muslims with the word “wine.” That’s my guess).
Honestly - if you guys had the chance to live the sort of lives some of us expats have here in Dubai (not necessarily talking about myself but many other expats I have met in various industries) - beautiful air-conditioned villas, year round sunshine, the beach a stone’s throw away, lavish hotels with fine world cuisine, bars, nightclubs, BIG tax-free paypackets, virtually no crime, servants/cheap domestic labour (not saying that’s a good thing per se, but it makes some people’s lives very much easier), getting the chance to live in a really exciting, fast-moving, fast-developing city. The best of Arabia and the best of the West, really, in terms of short-medium term luxurious lifestyle fun.
Eenerms, I tried your link but it didn’t work for me. Istara, as a woman living in the middle east, what is your perception of how women are treated there? If you were a native born female, would you still be treated the same way you are now? Have you visited any other middle eastern countries to contrast and compare them with the UAE? I find this subject fascinating.
As a lurker, the pit probably isn’t the best place to put my first post, but what the hell…
I, too, am an expat: 6 years in Saudi (mostly Riyadh), and three years in Qatar (among the big buildup). I guess what strikes me the most about the posts here, especially from the expats, is the lack of connection to place in which they live; the whole “them Arabs” attitude, I guess. Hey, I would be the first to admit that Riyadh isn’t exactly a garden spot for us (though that is exactly what it means in Arabic - “gardens”), but the locals aren’t as bad as people are making them out to be, either.
Firstly, I’m an American affiliated with the military and the defense industry - I speak what most would say is fluent Arabic - I made a point to study the history of the region, as I would any place I planned to make my home for any length of time - and I can say that my stay in Saudi was certainly of a better sort than what has been stated so far. The expat community in Riyadh is huge: my wife actually commented to me, once we had moved to Qatar, just how busy our social calendar was. We had something to do every weekend; hell, we were usually forced to choose between events each weekend, because we couldn’t cover everything. In addition, we traveled extensively: we camped in nature parks, on the edge of the largest volcanic/meteoric (no one really knows) craters in this part of the world, in the mountains of the south and the north. We met and are close friends with people from all over the world now (FYI Paul in Saudi, the Hispanic expat community in Riyadh is very large, and they actually have Spanish language classes, as many have non-Hispanic spouses), many who have lived in Saudi for years. Some of the best friends I made are Saudis; I’m not going to say they are all the greatest people on Earth, but they aren’t all bad, either.
Basically, Saudi has its faults, just like any place: yes, the culture is different, and the Wahhabi sect has made Riyadh, in particular, an extremely conservative place. But my main gripe is this: you (the other expats in the thread) have come to this area for the money - not the culture, not the people, not to sightsee - and that is how the local populace sees you. You are mercenaries, in a sense. So what is there to bitch about? No one dragged you kicking and screaming to this place, just so you could make a better salary, tax-free, than most others in your profession back home. Hell, the Brits and Canadians usually come and stay for eons; many in UAE and Bahrain have stayed for 15 or 20 years or longer, and there is a smaller group of the same in Saudi. For the locals, much of what they see is a bunch of foreigners coming in, earning money, and leaving - the money doesn’t stay, but is set up in accounts back home or off-shore. The typical expat attitude is -“So what, the Arabs are too lazy to do their own work, so what do they expect?” - obviously, this doesn’t foster great intercultural relations.
There are a lot of things wrong with Saudi, and Riyadh in specific: the mutawwayin, the “hypocritical” male attitude toward women, the whole “when you’re under my roof, you do as I say” attitude, no alcohol, women not driving, etc. There are a lot of things that will sooner or later come to a head there: with the ruling family all reaching an advanced age, and the next generation too young and weak too take the mantel, there are serious issues ahead. In general, the current generation of youth in Saudi is disrespectful, arrogant, and seriously lacking in any real guidance; figures such as Osama Bin Laden have taken on mythic proportion to a group of people that need someone to look up to. When you stop and look at the history, though, it’s not all that crazy: what do we think in the West when a privileged young man - who has huge fortune at his disposal - gives away everything to go and support, fight, and most likely die with a group of people who have nothing? The Saudis that left to support the Mujahideen in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion were just those people; those that returned were idolized, streets were named after them, they became the role models for which many in the young society had been so desperately searching. The more they gave up to go be with their Muslim brothers in distress, the higher the esteem in which they were held; is some kid who sets his sights on being the next Justin Timberlake any better? To this day, in every public building in Saudi there are donation boxes for the Muslims in Chechnya, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine; when you go to pay an electric bill or telephone bill, you can drop extra change off for these charities. And they are well-supported; when expats wonder about where the money for these charities goes, remember that all companies that operate in Saudi (even the foreign ones) have to be registered with Saudi owners. Those Saudis get a cut of profits or at the very least a registration fee; each Saudi in turn, as zaka’a, is obligated to give 10% to charity. If you have any question as to what those charities support, well, you might remember that you are helping to fund them.
Hey, everyone has a right to earn their living where they want, but remember: how do we look on people that come to our home, earn big salaries, never take the time to even learn the most basic aspects of our language, and then bitch about their treatment while they are here? I couldn’t swing a dead cat in Riyadh, Jeddah or Dammam without hitting an expat that had been there in excess of 5 years and didn’t know any more Arabic than Marhaba, Ma Salaama, and Ma Fi Mushkila (most likely because it had been printed on so many t-shirts). Sometimes, we cause our own problems.
I could go into a lot more of the cultural aspects, and describe a lot of the issues and anecdotes brought forth, but it’s late for me, and I don’t know if the Pit is the best venue. Please don’t take offense: I am only trying to elucidate the other side of the argument, one that isn’t often very well-articulated. I am not a defender of the Arabs, or Saudis in particular; I am all too aware of the limitations that their current form of society has created, and the huge problems that it will cause in the near future. There should have been no surprise in government circles to find that the majority of the actors in the events of September 11 were Saudi: the attitudes and feelings of many in the southern and mountainous areas of the country have been known to US intel for many years. Even the Saudi authorities don’t feel safe outside of the cities in the south, the Asir and the Hijaz; most policemen don’t even venture into those areas, for fear of never coming back. But ignoring the problems will never solve them, nor will blunt force; all that will do is continue the cycle.
Thanks for your time.
Greco
Greco-
Great first post; super-duper for you and welcome!
Anyway it is more a reflection on me than on the Saudis. They are what they are and they can get wearing (but then again I can get wearing too).
I just came from my Spanish class last night with the lovely Conchita and am pleased to report I am not quite as frighteningly dumb as I first feared.
(That being said, Spanish has got this thing called the “Future Tense” and I am eager to learn more about it.)
Right now in my life, I am just fed up with my long seperation from my family and my second-favorite country in the world. Like I said a reflection on me more than anything else.
Again, an excellent first post. Keep it up.
And totally wrong by Islamic Law. If a man rapes a woman, he is executed. No wrong on the part of the woman. This is another example of cultural attitudes polluting the religion. Same with “Honor killings”
The simple fact of Islamic law is that you are not allowed to have sexual contact with anyone but your spouse. If someone forces contact upon you, you are not responsible.
But who cares, right? Certainly not the assholes in the countries where these abuses take place.
Uuuhhh…
It’s Isaac, not Jacob.
The last century or so has been an exception to 1300 years of peaceful Islamic/Jewish relations.
Shortly after the death of The Prophet, Caliph Umar liberated Jerusalem from the Byzantines and asked the Jews to return.They had been banned, evicently because they had killed God or some such, and their presence would pollute the Holy City. Caliph Umar wrote the provision for Jewish return into the contract with his own hand, shocking the Patriarch.
Umar was known to be one of Muhammad’s harshest followers. If anyone were to have ground an axe, it would have been him.
Historically, Jews have fared well under Islamic regimes. Aldalusia, Ottoman Turkey, Yemen, and Morrocco, among others have had thriving Jewish communities, free from imaginary axe grinding. The Abraham/Isaac/Ishmael story serves to illustrate our kinship, rather than a rivalry.
The last hundred years have sucked. I hope things even back out, after the Islamic world realizes what tools these Wahhabis and Salafis really are.
Martin
medstar…I probably didn’t ‘do’ the link park correctly. Plug in www.arabnews.com that might work:)
Greco…your first post is a good one. When I first came to Saudi, I made an effort to learn Arabic and though I am far from fluent, I can understand a good persentage of it. I agree with your observation that expats who have been here for a long period of time do not make the effort. They are the same ones who speak loudly to their househelp because they do not understand what you are saying(eventhough the help can speak or understand three or more languages)
Our life in Saudi Arabia has been a good experience which I wouldn’t change. I don’t want to leave the impression that I hate it here, because I don’t. I can understand Paul’s frustration because my husband goes through the same thing perodically. But we chose this life no one is making us stay. Like I have said before, we can go back to the states, the Saudis pretty much have to stay here.
Wow, greco_loco, welcome to the boards! That was one heck of an informative and insightful first post. I hope you will become a regular here. Folks, I think we’ve found someone who can fill in for Collounsbury.
martin_ibn_martin, welcome back, your contributions are welcome and needed, but you’ve been kind of silent lately.
Sorry to be so late responding. I’ve caught one of the periodic plagues that come through and have been off the net for a few days. 
I talked with a couple of Saudi guys about taking videos at weddings. It seems that the primary demand would be from princess types and only for 'posed" shots. No running around taking video at random. Maybe the demand wouldn’t be as big as I thought.
As far as the women fighting back goes, I actually had a man here who’s wife kicked a mutawwa in a mall. She is Korean and he was from Minnisota and the upshot of it was that they deported her and he was left raising their daughter as a single dad. There are many rumors about mil-spec women clouting hell out of various mutawwa during Gulf war I, and the odd common thread they all have is that the regular Saudis were somewhat pleased by it. Abdullah Average suffers from these people a lot more than the expats do.
I personally know one woman who was born in North Vietnam and married an Air America pilot there. She refuses to wear an abayya. During the war, she was accosted by two mutawwa and instead of being meek and humble about it, she was aggressive. She asked them why, when their country was being invaded, they were harassing women instead of carrying a rifle. The implication being pretty clear that they were cowardly and less than men. Anyway, she wound up chasing the mutawwa out of the mall. 
It was funny as hell at the time but I couldn’t recommend it as a long-term strategy.
All the best.
Testy
Thanks for the support, and appreciate the comments; once again, I realize that the Pit is more for flaming than fighting ignorance, but I’m new…
As for the whole “fighting the mutawwa” thing: the Society for the Prevention of Vice and Protection of Morals, as they call themselves, use what they feel is Shari’a-based law to guide them. There is a bit of confusion as to what a mutawwa is among the expats; most expats call the “guardians,” or the guys downtown that cruise the souqs looking for those flaunting the “Law”, mutawwa, but that is a mistake. A mutawwa in Saudi is anyone who follows a strict Salafist lifestyle; mutawwa can be distinguished by the beard (or often the attempt at one), the simple thobe with a high hemline, cheap sandals, and no jewellery or ornamentation. I worked with many mutawwa, some of which are close friends; one of the most helpful, intelligent, and level-headed Saudis I know is a mutawwa, and he abhors the short-sightedness often exhibited by the patrols. However, keep in mind that they have little power on their own: a mutawwa patrol can castigate you verbally, as a foreigner, but should never strike or otherwise physically confront or constrain; they get carried away sometimes, especially when dealing with who they consider to be TCN’s (for those not familiar with the term, it means Third Country National, and refers to most Asians that form the bulk of the labor force in the Gulf). You also have to remember that the average Saudi is taught from a young age, both at home and in the mosque, that they are the elite; there is a strong racist current among modern Saudis, and this is often demonstrated among the mutawwa patrols.
Another key to the Saudi mentality is to think of life there in tribal terms, as they themselves do; family comes first, then the tribe, then the country. This fosters an almost feudal system: kind of like 17th through 19th century Europe, where the only way to power was through the military or the clergy; this is an inexact analogy, but gives the basic construction. In Saudi, you are either born a royal, one of the 40 families, or not; if not, your only chance at becoming powerful rests in either business (requiring close ties to the royals and the 40), or via Islam. Many of the “disadvantaged” go the mutawwa way; it is a form of power over others, and can quickly go to one’s head. When one is considered more “righteous” than his neighbor, and there is some institutionalized support, problems can occur.
Some things to keep in mind when confronted with a patrol: if you are a woman on her own, either of Western or Asian appearance, you are a target for the patrol; they don’t get much chance to intimidate or otherwise interact with females, so expect a confrontation, especially if they are in one of their “Islamic purity” cycles and you do not have your head covered or are not wearing the abbaya. If you are confronted, don’t accept being touched, with a stick or not: a mutawwa has no power to do anything unless backed with support of the police. Some women have actually been taken back to mutawwa offices and held; this is not allowed, as only with police cooperation can the patrol do anything to a foreigner or Saudi woman. If you speak Arabic, you can tell them directly to find a policeman or to leave you alone; if you don’t (and most mutawwa that are on patrol are fairly uneducated, so don’t often speak English), they usually understand the word “police” (it’s shurta in Arabic, BTW). If you happen to be a couple, and the male is not directly spoken to, then the patrol has again violated his own rules: they are not allowed to speak directly to any women if their partners or escorts are present. Once again, for many it is a power play; assert yourself politely but firmly, and the situation will often disappear. As long as you don’t make a huge scene and try to make an ass out of the patrol in public, you can usually walk away pretty easily.
When I was in the military in Saudi, there were some examples of military females being accosted by the mutawwa; most ended rather uneventfully, but I do remember on at least one occasion where a mutawwa used his stick and created one hell of a commotion. In that case, the mutawwa was eventually forced to apologize for his lack of control; one of the basic tenets of the “real” mutawwa is to not show anger or indignation, but to walk in life as the Prophet did. My wife had almost no encounters in the 3 years she was there, and she was out and about on a daily basis. A lot depends on your attitude, and whether the mutawwa are on one of their 'Purity" drives, as I said before.
While true that many Saudis in Riyadh dislike the idea of the patrols, it is also true that many will choose their brothers over a foreigner when the chips are down. I have seen Saudis roundly castigate mutawwa patrols that were in the act of tearing down Valentine’s Day and Christmas displays in the malls; I have also seen Saudis support the mutawwa in catching a female that was indecently dressed, and making sure that the police were informed so she could be taken in to custody (she was not Saudi, BTW). Unfortunately, for the expats that don’t speak the language and doesn’t have much connection to the local culture, it is very hard for most foreigners to assess the situation properly. I, too, know of one American woman who refused to wear an abbaya, loudly proclaimed her independence and refusal to far and wide, and, after several confrontations, found a patrol and a policeman who detained her; her husband was contacted, he came to the station to collect her, along with his sponsor’s representative, and told he could voluntarily send her out of the country, or he and her would both be deported. He sent her home; I agree with the Saudis on this one - you live in their house, if you don’t like the rules, leave.
And, though I am male, I have spoken to many Arab women, in different situations, as has my wife; anyone with contacts in the community will tell you that there is no big hurry among Saudi women for the right to drive. This should not be a surprise: anyone who has driven in Riyadh can tell you it is not that great of an experience. In the larger picture, though, many Saudi women realize that they have it pretty easy: maids, drivers, time to go to school as much as they like (due to the amount of free education and time, many Saudi women have advanced professional degrees), and the rule of the house (they are usually in charge at home). There are serious issues, and there are many discussions in Saudi society about their rectification; however, it is a big mistake for Westerners to automatically assume that Saudi women feel repressed and subjugated.
OK - off of the soapbox, and off to work. Again, thanks for your time.
BTW Jomo Mojo, thanks for the favorable comparison to Collounsbury: I always liked his posts, and have a similar opinion in most cases. Maybe not as vitriolic, but probably not as erudite, either. I’ll give it my best, though…