I am sick of Saudi Arabia!

And one more thing of local interest for the expats: if you really want to find out about the mutawwayin, learn some Arabic, and get a better understanding of the Qur’an while you’re at it, go to school. More specifically: the Islamic University of Imam Mohammed Bin Saud (known in Riyadh as Al Imam University) offers free Arabic classes. It is the school for all mutawwayin in the Kingdom (not that they all go to university, but for the ones that want higher study, this is where they start); many students that want to study Islam from out of the country also go there, which is why they have a free Arabic course. The course is not simple: there are six levels, and to complete all of them can take 2 years or so. However, even sitting in on the class for a semester is enlightening; we used to have some really interesting discussions, as the classes are taught by mutawwayin to Muslims from all over the world. You don’t have to be Muslim to enter; however, the classes are only for men (the university is only for men, so…) And if you don’t know where it is, it is on the way to the airport, across from FAL and Arizona compounds. There aren’t a lot of Westerners that go (I think I was only the 3rd or 4th that had ever taken the language classes), but, if you want an intellectual and cultural challenge, there it is.

Now I’m really going to work…

Very very varied, even within each country. Treatment here as an expat woman is very different than for a local. I am beholden to no one, they are beholden to fathers and husband culturally, if not legally.

Western businesswomen can generally get by with similar treatment as western businessmen. There are some things they won’t get access to, some “work social” activities they are probably not invited to. But then as a woman, you have much better access to local businesswomen than expat men do.

You also have to be careful that when invited for a business dinner (or what you think is going to be one) it turns out to be a seduction scenario, they want your knickers, not your business. But that happens in the west as well, just more often here. I have found Arab men much more open about being married with kids yet still propositioning for a sexual relationship - unlike in the west where the guy is hiding his wedding ring and not letting baby photos fall out of his wallet!

I am surprised they have success with this, because as a woman I personally find it insulting to be wanted solely as “a bit on the side” - so there obviously must be enough women here willing to do the mistress thing for these men to persist in their behaviour. So perhaps they should be congratulated for their honesty rather than criticised for their stupidity!

Other example: today I was going to take a day off and go with a male friend to the Global Village (http://www.mydsf.com - part of the Dubai Shopping Festival). Then I found out it was Ladies’ Day every Monday - no men allowed - so I have deferred my day off. So it works both ways, they do try to make extra space for women to observe cultural values of segregation should they want to which as a western woman you can sometimes benefit from. (Eg using the shorter “ladies” queue in goverment offices). Yet a woman does have full access to everything she wants to go to, except of course mosques without ladies’ rooms and that sort of thing. However they do cultural tours round one of the biggest mosques here for visitors of all race, religion and gender.

Elsewhere in the region - and I haven’t travelled that much, but associate with many people who have - the experience can be more difficult, such as in Saudi as per this thread. Generally speaking though western expat women are extremely well treated, those from poorer nations that constitute a servant class (Filipinos, Sri Lankas, Bangaldeshis, some Indians and Pakistanis etc) doubtless live in a whole different world to us.

In late-breaking news, my vacation may be cancelled.

Salem has suddenly decided that he need to make Hajj for his father. I have my vacation in and approved, and I have reservations in Las Vegas. Needless to say I shall discuss this with The Colonel tomorrow.
Harumph!

Greco_Loco, thanks for your extremely well thought out posts. It’s nice getting as many different views as possible. In your observations, do women in general have access to services, such as taxis, shopping in malls and grocery stores, or must they stay at home and get delivery? Can they go to a beauty salon or does the religion forbid cosmetics and hairdressing? Sorry for the naive questions.

Greco doesn’t seem to be on this morning so I’ll take the questions on women. Anyway, the women can go pretty much wherever they please. They can either take a taxi or go with a male relative. Many foreign companies provide drivers for the wives that will take them shopping or whatever. (It’s cheaper than having hubby take off work to drive them around.) The lack of permission to drive isn’t a huge problem for the women, more of an irritation.
As far as the religion prohibiting cosmetics, I don’t believe it does. However, the woman has to keep it at home for the hubby and not show herself to other men.
It is very odd going to a Saudi house for dinner. The wife and any female children generally stay in some other part of the house and then pass the dishes through a hatch or a servant brings them. On the up-side, you should see some of the houses. Indoor pools, gyms, saunas, domestic help, basically whatever they want. My daughter (14YO) has a Saudi girlfriend that occasionally spends the night. (Her family is VERY liberal.) The girl arrives in a new BMW with a full-time driver and bodyguard.

All the best.

Testy.

Testy, thanks for the assist. No, Islam (not even the Wahhabi sect) does not actually prohibit adornment (such as cosmetics); under their abbayas and hijab (on the Arabian Peninsula when a woman has her face completely or partially covered, it is referred to as hijab) they wear normal clothing, make-up and jewellery. In the Wahabbi belief system, it is actually the men that are pointedly told to refrain from adornment: as such, Saudi men do not wear gold (true for most Arab men in the Middle East in general, hence the tradition of silver wedding rings) and are to avoid ostentatious displays of wealth. For Testy and Paul, I’m sure this may not be what they see in practice, however: it is not uncommon to see Saudi men wearing $10K plus watches, shoes and sandals that are in the $300 and $400 range, and having thobes and ghutras that have been hand-tailored costing well in excess of $300. One of the more unusual discussions I heard a few years ago in Saudi was on Saudi television: an imam had been asked about ostentation, and how to tell what was too much, by a concerned Saudi. He then explained that the council had seriously studied this (I assume meaning they pored over the Qur’an and Hadith, then put their heads together and made something up); their decision was that males could actually wear gold-plated watches, as long as the gold plating was less than 5% of the actual weight of the watch, or was only gold-colored, and not really gold. In any case, the platinum series Rolexes were actually designed for the Middle East; the main Rolex dealer in Riyadh said it is about the only place in the world where the watches sell (they are upwards of $25K for most models in the line). At least it isn’t that flashy gold…

Women have and wear jewellery for different reasons than adornment: a Saudi woman usually has received the bulk of her jewellery at her wedding. Typical Saudi/Arab weddings are very expensive: they can run in excess of $25K for a middle-class coupling, and those in the higher social classes will easily reach $75K or $100K. A large part of the cost is the bride’s “security,” or the gold jewellery (must be 21K gold or higher) that the groom provides her to wear for her wedding day; this includes elaborate headpieces, necklaces that cover the entire chest, belts, bangles, rings, earrings, etc. For even the most basic wedding, $10K is considered a ballpark figure; it is agreed upon in advance by the families of the bride and groom. From the wedding day forward, the bride can use her money to buy more gold, and will, of course, accumulate gold as gifts from her husband. This gold is hers, no matter what; in the case of divorce, she takes it with her. Women do actively trade, buy and sell gold in the markets; the gold souq in Riyadh is usually busy with Arab women, often carrying little overnight cases that they use to keep their jewellery in.

Sorry - went way off-topic there, but I had some time to kill…

Thanks for the time -

While I wait for this meeting to start…

Women can and do go everywhere they need or want to; there are tailors and hairdressers, as well as stores and even whole floors in some of the larger malls that are for women-only. In many Gulf countries, large shopping areas and malls often set aside one or two days of the week in which only “families” (no single men or groups of men only) can enter. Restaurants are also segregated: there are family sections and men’s sections, or at the very least there are dividers and/or curtains separating the boothes. Even fast-food places like Burger King have two separate dining rooms.

In private, women wear what they please around their family; only when a non-relative comes into the house does she don some kind of covering. Usually, Arab houses have separate family and entertaining rooms: a majlis or salla, in which there are cushions or seats around the periphery, with some small tables in the middle, for the men; a dining room, a living room, and sometimes a sitting room, for mixed family gatherings. Saudi houses can indeed be, and usually often are, quite large: there is a subsidy given to Saudi citizens when they marry, as well as an interest-free loan in most municipalities. To encourage marriage, many cities will pay a portion of the marriage costs, give long-term, no-interest loans (basically grants, as no one pays them back) for houses, and give subsidies per child for living and food. In some areas, this has brought land prices to a very high level: an average villa (about 5,000 sq. ft. inside, with another 4,000 sq ft outside) in Riyadh, on the outer edges of the city, is no less than about $225,000. Many of the villas in the city itself run $400K and up. I say villa here because neighborhoods in the Gulf are not like what you would think: in the Gulf, Arabs value their privacy above all else, so typical houses are walled, with gardens, yards and such within the perimeter. A row of houses will be all high walls, with entry gates and garage doors in evidence. Not like what we think of in the US or the UK when we ponder a typical neigborhood.

Have a good day; I will check in later…

I have a (western expat) friend visting from Yemen - one of those cool jobs where you work for 30 days, then get 30 days holiday including free flights to anywhere in the world! - and he says among the people he is working with there is little respect for women. He is working mainly with bedu Yemenis (bedouin).

That is not to say they ill-treat their women - he has no evidence either way - but the general sentiment is one of disregard and women are certainly not regarded in any way as equal to men.

I don’t think you will find many middle-eastern guys who consider women their equal in any way. It just doesn’t happen as far as I’ve seen.
Having said that, I’ve liked the few bedu that I have met. They are helpful, friendly and generally not as hellishly Islamic as the townies.

All the best

Testy

I guess they’re right… after all, we are their superior :wink:

Is anyone familiar with this book and it’s sequels.

Princess, Life Beyond the Veil by Jean Sasson.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967673747/qid=1043151553/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/104-5933577-9042305?v=glance&s=books

The book claims to be the true story of a female member of the royal family and the women in her life. The stories in the book are beyond belief and I wonder just how true they are.

Well, The Colonel relented and agreed to let me go on vacation as scheduled. I have reservations in Las Vegas and London, couldn’t really back out.

All in all this just add to my need for a year off as a sabatical. I got a job offer in Equador. I am holding out for Chilie. I like Chilie a lot, although Equador is closer to home.

From a total provincial who has never been able to travel outside of North America, let me just say how much I appreciate the postings of istara, Martin ibn Martin, Paul, Testy, greco loco, and everybody else who’s contributed. It’s absolutely fascinating and so refreshing to hear such things uninterrupted by commercials and without agendas.

Buena suerte, Paul, in your career!

Hello again, just a few quick (for me) comments…

First, an easy one: Princess, Beyond the Veil is well-known in the Arab world, and is still banned in Saudi. Is it true? Well, I think it is safe to say that a lot of it was true, especially in the time period in which the book’s titular character was living. A lot have read the book, which was first printed shortly after Op. Desert Storm, and think that the events are contemporary to that time (the late 80’s/early 90’s). However, most of what is described actually takes place in the 60’s and 70’s, with some events described later in the 80’s. Ms. Sasson was a Brit expat, who had heard many "rumors’, as we all have, and was looking for the perspective of an Arabic woman. She later did at least one follow-up book on the Princess’ daughters, as well.

No doubt about it: honor killings, sexual and physical abuse at the hands of siblings and family members, and incest have all been issues that Saudi women have had to face; the situation has improved to a great degree, and it’s rare to hear any of the same type of stories today (or through the 90’s, when the book was popular). Of the Saudi families that I am in regular contact with, all members (and they are pretty large families) would find the actions depicted just as reprehensible as we do; however, unlike in the West where we bring injustices such as these out in the open, the Arabs hate to have any kind of dirty laundry washed in public. Though many point to this reluctance as a symbol of their backwardness and a simple refusal to join the modern world, a large part of it is the ingrained notion of privacy that is so important to the Arab; they don’t talk about birth defects (which occur in quite large numbers, due to the allowance in Islam of marriage and procreation between first-cousins), they don’t talk about family misfortunes, they don’t discuss shameful or painful events. Most all Gulf Arabs come from nomadic tribes, and the nomads (or bedu/beduin - the Arabic word for nomad/nomads, which actually comes from the root word for “without”) that make up the main Saudi tribes scratched out their living among the Nejd, the central plateau of the peninsula. Like I said before, Riyadh means “gardens” in Arabic; for those that live there, I don’t think that would be the first word that would come to your mind on seeing the city. The Nejd is a very arid land mass, and living there was hard: the average Bedu will tell you he can live on dates and camel milk, and that was pretty much all they had, with the exception of items they could trade for. Living and moving in large tribal groups, the only thing a bedu could call his own was privacy; everything else was part of the community. Not an excuse for any particular form of behavior, mind you, but part of the overall reason for why things are the way they are today.

On to the general attitude toward women: Saudi is a male-dominated society, and the Arab peninsula always has been. Women have been seen as a way to provide heirs, and still are seen that way by many: I have friends that took second wives (yes, Muslims are allowed up to four, as long as all are treated absolutely equally) simply because their first wives couldn’t produce enough children. Saudis are encouraged to have as many children as possible; it is a pervasive desire, and has been there for hundreds of years. Most Saudi men think of themselves as sexual dynamos, as well: the malls and souqs are full of shops that sell honey (go in a honey shop and ask the seller which one is the best and, most importantly, why), sprays, powder, lotions and pills to sustain erections and make the male “more virile.” I have had Saudis tell me how they just have to have sex 4 and 5 times a day; many Saudi women get pregnant within weeks of having a baby, leading to families with 4 or 5 children 9 months apart in age. Families of 15 are not uncommon, nor are families with more than one mother (one wife is still the norm, followed closely by two - three and four wives are only for the very rich and powerful, as a matter of status). Many Arab men won’t marry an educated woman as their first wife; it is a common problem that professional women in Saudi - doctors and lawyers - can’t get married until they are in their late 20’s or early 30’s, and then only as second, third or fourth wives. Many of these women, especially the doctors, work in areas where there are Western men; they often meet them and get married, though this usually requires them to live in the West, as the local community would look down on her and him. Some go off to school in the West, and meet men there; they will visit their families, but will not live in Saudi on a permanent basis.

Though many think that these attitudes lead to a desire among Saudi men for submissive wives, that is not usually the reality: in Saudi, there are many ways of achieving a certain level of status, and one of the highest is to marry a South American woman, most especially a Brazilian. I remember, I think in 97 or 98, when the Brazil soccer team was invited to play in the King Fahd Cup; they were required to come to Riyadh for a match, and the Brazilians told the Saudis that they would only come if a contingent of their fans came with them. As Saudi soccer stadiums are all male, this was a tough request for the Saudis to handle, but they acquiesced: the game was played, and the crowd of Saudi men that came to see the Brazilian fans (there were about 1,000 allowed, a few hundred were female) was phenomenal. Not to mention it was one of the television highlights for months…

Also, many Saudi men will readily admit that, while they may be the boss in public, the wives rule the house: decoration, furnishing, the children, are all the wife’s domain. While the men are out in sheesha palaces or coffee shops, the women usually gather at each other’s houses to talk, cook, plan shopping trips, etc. This division has always existed for the nomads, and still does today among the city dwellers (there are still beduin in Arabia, but most Saudis and others are properly called hatheri, the Gulf Arabic term for the sedentary population).

Hope this answers more questions than it creates. Anything that isn’t clear, or any questions, I will do my best.

Thanks again -

If you want to get a job in Chile, it will probably help if you can spell the name of the country correctly. :wink:

Sorry to hijack, but while we’re on the topic of Gulf states…

What’s life like for a westerner in Kuwait? Is anyone here familiar enough to answer? I have a peculiar fixation with living in Kuwait someday. Primarily fantasy, but still.

This is one of the things I love about football, it seems to unite the whole world. Virtually everyone is crazy about football (apart from those poor Americans). From Christian shanty towns in South America to hardline Islamist regimes in the middle east to Jewish Israel to Communist China. People with completely diametric viewpoints who wouldn’t give each other the time of day normally are all united in their fanaticism for football.

Did the female Brazil fans show up in their usual garb? They usually come dressed for the beach dancing the samba, whatever country they are playing in. If so, I can imagine it would have caused quite a stir in Saudi.

Greco Loco, thank you for your detailed posts, but I’m curious about your last post. You wrote that female Saudi doctors, businesswomen married Westerners and left Saudi to live in the West. I’ve read some other posts dealing with Saudi Arabia and I gathered that female Muslims weren’t allowed to marry foreigners, much less non-Muslims. What gives with that? Also, I thought that females weren’t allowed to leave Saudi Arabia. I guess their husbands had to give permission? Anyway, from what I’ve read, the women’s lives seem a lot better than I’ve imagined. Thanks for your thoughtful insights.

I agree with Greco’s assessment of the Jean Sasson book.

One has to remember Saudi Arabia is a realitively new country with it’s share of growning pains. There are historical incidences of the same things(sexual abuse, honor killings, incest etc) in Western societies. There is nothing ‘new’ that is happening here that hasn’t happened in other countries.

Unlike Greco mingling with royalty:), we mingle with the bedu. My husband works with quite a few and we have been invited out to their tents( the equivalant of a Westerners vacation home) They can set up tents and have camels as long as they are not permenant fixtures. The Saudi we know is from the largest bedoin tribe in Saudi Arabia, and he is one generation away from his roots. He said they always call him, so he has his tents, camp fires, arabic coffee, kapsa,camels and falcon. He also has his GPS and four wheel drive.:wink:

I’ve never lived there for an extended period but used to visit for several weeks at a time. Kuwait is considerably less of an Islamic hard-line country than Saudi, but still more religious than say Bahrain or the Emirates. You hardly ever see an actual Kuwaiti, foriegners outnumber them by a huge margin. Women can drive and work, alcohol is forbidden but commonly available. It’s an interesting place but small and generally very expensive.

Testy