I am sick of Saudi Arabia!

Glad to have given some insight…

**Medstar[\b], sorry first of all if I gave the impression that there was some sort of “mass exodus” of female professionals marrying and leaving the country; though many do, it is still a small percentage. And, as I eluded to, there are many issues, chief among them being that a Muslim woman will rarely, if ever, be given permission (from family, mosque, or government) to marry a non-Muslim. This is widespread among Muslim countries, not just in Saudi. So, what do the men do? Well, they convert; conversion is not seen as trivial in the Muslim world, so if someone simply converted to get married, it is usually met with a large amount of resistance. Most will refrain from calling the “new” Muslim a liar, but they will not be comfortable around him (and by extension, his new wife), either. Now, I do know several Westerners who have converted out of ideological reasons and moved to Muslim countries; they have often married locals, but with a background of having come to Islam before meeting their wife. In such cases, there are no issues: most Muslims accept a converted Muslim as equals immediately, and in fact tend to “parade” or show them off at every opportunity. There is currently a program in Saudi (and there has been for several years), that will actually help “establish” you once you have converted; in other words, you get paid. The amounts were not large (about $10K or so), but to help offset the difficulties in being re-born as a Muslim.

And no Saudi is given free reign to leave the Kingdom; Saudis do not keep passports with them, but they are issued as need be to leave the Kingdom. Women have to have their male “sponsor” get them a passport and exit visa; the male sponsor is a father, oldest brother or guardian (if the father is gone), or husband. Expats usually (not as much now, but previously they were much stricter) surrender their passports to their sponsors on entry to the country; they are then issued with an “iqama,” which is a small identity booklet. To leave, an exit visa must be applied for; you can get these in a few days (maybe longer, depending on your sponsor and the time of the year), at which time your passport is returned to you. If there are any outstanding claims against you (such as parking tickets, criminal or Shari’a complaints, or collection actions), you will not be allowed to leave until such claims are settled; there are usually several stories about people going on vacation that make it to the airport just to find that they owe on a parking ticket.

Didn’t mean to imply that I hobnob regularly with the royals :cool: ; I do know some in the royal family, and many in the 40, but that is due to my job. Most of the people I count as friends and acquaintances are your normal low - to middle class types; many of them are bedu, and some actually don’t own houses, but still live their whole lives in tents. The Saudi government has tried to many schemes to get the bedu housed and out of the tents, so to speak, but there are still many out there; for those of you familiar with Eskan village, it was originally built as a housing project for the bedu. They wouldn’t live there, though, so it ended up being abandoned til the time of Desert Storm, where it made a great housing opportunity for allied forces.

The “istraha” tents (those used by the Arabs for weekends and winter times in the desert) are always fun, and, as you can see on any weekend night, the Arabs in the cities love to go to the desert whenever they can. Most Saudis aren’t too far from their bedu roots; if you see pictures of Riyadh or Jeddah in the 60’s, you realize quickly that most of them are only one or two generations removed from their bedu ancestors. City populations in the 60’s were much smaller; many in Riyadh lived in Dira’iyah until the mid-70’s, which is basically a mud-brick town. Many Saudis still proudly own farms and camels (still a status symbol); during holiday times it was common for our workplace to be full of camel milk and dates from the farms, as everyone who had a small farm or camel would bring something in. BTW - if you haven’t tried it, spiced warm camel milk with dates, followed by Arabic coffee, can be quite an experience.

On Kuwait: most expats find it to be crowded, compared to other Gulf states; most everyone lives in flats or condos in large buildings (not in villas like in Saudi and Qatar, but more like Dubai and Abu Dhabi). Traffic is a bear, cost of living is higher than most Gulf states, and, at least on the government/military level, the personnel are even more exasperating. I have had many opportunities to live there, and have turned them down; I would actually have preferred Riyadh to there. However, I am quite comfortable here in Qatar: nice, quiet, calm place which, up until the whole “war with Iraq” thing, nobody had even heard about. Oh well…

Hope this answers some of the questions…

Jojo, the Brazilian fans were asked to respect the rules of the Kingdom and be as modestly dressed as possible; needless to say, that was still pretty scandalous by Saudi standards, and at the match itself there were women in evidence with bikini tops on, etc. There weren’t any closeups on TV, but I know several Saudis who still highly cherish photos from that event…

Re the passport thing: Saudi woman I know had to get her SON to sign her “consent to leave the country” form - even though he was only about 13 at the time!

Wow, Istara, that sounds unbelievable! What if the son acted like a typical 13 year old twit and refused? Is there anything the mother could have done to teach his little ass a lesson? Such as “forget” his allowance till he’s 30? I must admit, this whole thread is quite an eye-opener. It’s made me revise my earlier impressions.

A group of Women, western and other Arabs(non Saudi) went to Yanbu from the Eastern Province. We all had to have a Travel Letter from our husbands and a copy of his Iqama(residency permit which we are on anyway). The letter had to be translated into Arabic. We were spending the night at the Holiday Inn, the reception didn’t even look at the letters, but you can be sure if we didn’t have them then we would be sent back. To leave the kingdom I am ‘suppose’ to have my husband’s permission too, because he is responsible for me. So far there hasn’t been a problem.:stuck_out_tongue:

medstar - if you knew this Saudi lady, no man would refuse her anything! She is TOUGH.

It is amusing though that her son (now 18) apparently says he wants a traditional and submissive wife. This Saudi lady is appalled by this, but he blames it on her being such a strong woman - she is a senior businesswoman and very outspoken - and he thinks it would be hard to be married to someone like his mother! Anyway she is hoping that in a few years he will come to his senses and go for a woman who is his equal, not his doormat.

eenerms - I heard there was a big problem once with a western woman whose husband was killed and she couldn’t leave the country, because she had no mahram available to sign forms or whatever, nor any close male relatives who could fly in. IIRC they either bent the rules, or they did find a cousin or something who flew to Saudi to escort her out. UL?

These are some great stories. I thought all Saudi women were downtrodden, barefoot and pregnant. It’s good to see that they’ve got the right to make their own money, even if in a limited fashion. I was wondering about another thing I’ve heard about. Is it true that dogs are forbidden in a devout muslim household? How would blind people get around?

medstar, blind people would probably have a maid or valet type person depending on the sex of the blind person. Or family member.

istara. I believe the employee’s sponser would take care of it, somehow.

Dogs are frowned upon. I have Saudi friends whole have dogs to guard the sheep. The idea of a pet dog puzzles them.

A buddy of mine runs the canine security section of (a large, important) company (whose name you could guess). He has nearly a hundred dogs, each with its own policeman and its own dog. The policemen are paid a bonus to work with dogs.

My friend complains he has to deal all the time with policement who beat the dogs.

Needless to say, the cats run rampent. Another ecosystem destroyed by man’s intervention.

In other news today I got the mid-February issue of The Week in the mail. It has been in the First-class mail for fifty weeks. I am adding to the reasons listed in the OP about why I am sick of this place.

Hatred of Judaism was found in very early Islam. After Muhammad tried to become the spiritual leader of the Jews of Medina and was rejected, he spoke against all Jews. According to the Hadith, on the Last Day the Jews will hide behind trees to avoid being slayed by the faithful, but the trees themselves will cry out “There is a Jew behind me! Come and kill him!”

Anti-semitism in Islam comes and goes; this latest wave is by no means the first.

UnuMondo

I think they probably buy into the “American girls are easy” stereotype.

read “easy” as “have no morals” and read “American” as “western”.

We went ot an “Islamic Enlightenment” class the other day. As our Filapino friends pointed out a free lunch was involved. It was nice.

The instructor pointed out that since there are seven girls born for each boy the Islamic system of polygomy is perfectly natural. By this point the entire class was stunned into submission by various other comments. We didn’t even challenge him.

Wow, Paul in Saudi, that instructor sounds laughable. By the way, I understand that you want a new job in a new place, but are there any things in Saudi that you like better than in the U.S.? Is the pace of life there faster or slower than the U.S. ?

There was a mullah on TV (English speaking channel) over Ramadan who was hilarious. The sort of guy who in the UK would have turned into cult student viewing. Just this long, rambling, non-sensical monologue:

“Today I have come up with a new word. Do you want to know what it is? It is “blight”. You won’t find this word in the dictionary because it is a new word that I have invented - “blight”. It is a little bit “black” - a little bit “white”. It is not grey because when you mix black and white you get grey and that is not good so I have invented a new word “blight” - see? “Black” and “white” - “blight”.”

I swear on my granny’s grave that the guy went on like this for at least 10 minutes, just on this “blight” thing in his sermon. How fking stupid he can be to not realise (a) it’s already a word and (b) it has more than a slightly negative connotation I cannot imagine. I still have no clue what he actually invented it for.

But then this is the same, very amiable-looking guy, to be fair - he’s always smiling and friendly-faced, not stern or anything - who came up with: “the difference with Islam is that is it not inherited. It is the only religion that is not passed down through family. Judaism, Christianity - but Islam is different, it is not inherited.”

I am not Islamic-scholar enough to know if this is technically true or not, but culturally at least people ARE born Muslim, and even if they convert to something else, or just go atheist, they are viewed as apostate, a really sticky situation.

Well I am hdinghere as I cannot go back to Central America for a while. I miss life there.

Here life has a certain monotony that I sorta like. I sorta like that in Panama too.

The money here good, althoug I no longer worry too much about that. Still it is nice. I enjoy life outside the US of A. Saudi Arabia counts for that, but I think it is time to move on.

I got some apps out over our (Thursday-Friday) weekend. Needless to say no replies yet.

Keep your fingers crossed, cresanted, whatever.

Hey! I thought of the “fingers crescented” a while back, wondering what muslims do instead of “cross.”

…goes to ask Arab Muslim colleague…

I am told “we do it, but it’s a very western habit.” It doesn’t seem to cause this particular colleague any offence anyway. She said there isn’t really an Arab equivalent she can think of (I suggested “touch wood” etc), just maybe praying. They do use religious invocations more often than non-muslims do - eg we often say “fingers crossed”, they say “inshallah” (=“god willing”)

How are things where you are, Istara? Have you ever been discriminated against in terms of work, shopping, driving, etc? Can you buy your own home, start a business without a male relative’s permission? Can you travel freely inside and outside the country? I’m really curious.

Hey Istara, I thought I would bump this thread once for you.

We are now in the annual Hajj vacation. Ten days with no students; woo-woo!

The Islamic calendar suffers from too few holidays. We just did Ramadan in November. When I get back from two weeks in CA I will face nine months before the next official break.

(I make up for it with a couple of long weekends in Cairo.)

During holiday periods like this I go to twice-a-day swims. Although I started this while upset with this place, life is good now. How can you be upset when it is snowing in America and yet you can do double swims?