I am so stubborn, how can I convince you?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I thought as long as I stay lurking and post nothing, I won’t get hooked on Dope.
I guess being sucked into the intellectual orgy is inevitible. Goodbye blissful ignorance! :frowning:

Anyway, to topic.

I try to keep away from debates, fun they might be, to keep friends. But recently I’ve made acquaintence of a person whose idea of small talk is about God, Truth, Consciousness, etc–All capitalized.

I just emerged from a conversation about whether consciousness is possible to investigate scientifically, with rigor. :rolleyes: I don’t think any form of communication took place during the 2~3 hour chat. Worst of all, we were so civil about it, so tolerant of each other’s deviant thoughts.

Clearly good ol’ logical thinking is a waste of time. I’ve come to be more and more religious recently–thinking of preaching instead of debating. So considering that it’s impossible to prove god is a state of mind, how can I pound that idea into my parents’ mind. Threaten them with heaven? :dubious:

So does any doper have one of those religious epiphany, all the sudden you realize Og smites. It doesn’t have to be religious, anything that sounds like betrayal is fine. Why did you switch camp? How did you rationalize your past foolishness?

My mother tongue is one without plurals or verb tenses. I am sure I’ll provide ample entertainments for a certain segment of the community.

2

When I was a kid I read MAD magazine.

One of my favorite quotes:

“I swear to god I’m an Athiest”

  • Alfred e. Newman
3

I disagree. :slight_smile:

What idea are you trying to get your parents to accept?
How do you know you are right?

I attended Congregational Church for years, because my parents took me.
I studied the Bible at School.
Then I decided there was not sufficient evidence to believe in God. I asked my Sunday School teacher (a decent man) how we knew God existed. He replied that it was all faith. Since I have a scientific approach, that meant I gave up on believing in God.
Have a nice day now.

My mother tongue is one without plurals or verb tenses. I am sure I’ll provide ample entertainments for a certain segment of the community.
[/QUOTE]

4

You can’t use reason to defeat a position the other guy reached by faith.

On the other hand, If you strive to prove logically that God exists, does that mean you have no faith? Would God resent that?

Does a Jew have to leave out a letter when typing Og?

5

Of course I have no idea whether I am right. The point is that for these intellectual splits, no one knows. I just find that in a “polite” debate every statement is prefixed with “I think”, “IMO”, etc. But this reasonableness really drags down the effectiveness of logic. When it comes to ideology, reason is secondary. What I mean is “I know I am right”, and now I’ll just invent a proof to show you. It’s this intuition I am trying to get to, the (probably arbitrary) belief that is dressed up in logic when we try to convince others, and ourselves, of our belief.

IMO :rolleyes: rationality is as dicey as faith when it comes to abstract debate. I can never prove EVERYTHING. So at the end of it, you’ll have to take my words for it. For example, “there’s no proof for God” is as good/bad an argument for atheism as “Bible is the word of God” for…theism. Of course, we can get sophisticated, but everything boils down to these intuitions.

I’d like to cause an existential meltdown in my parents :wink: There are so many interesting things to learn and do, yet they spend their time on Bible and praying. Sure sure, they get spiritual fulfillment and comfort, but why not take Russell’s words as the holy words, if all we can have is faith.

As for my own conversion from Christianity to atheism…I used to take myself an agnocist, but that’s just such a polite position to hold. If I allow people to believe in god, why not allow myself to believe in no god… my process is pretty much the same as glee’s. I took up “accept no dogmas” as my prima dogma of the religion of science.

So i guess I am asking this: there are so many good emotional appeals for irrationality, are there any good ones for rationality?

This goes beyond just religion. Pro-life vs Pro-choice, etc. I don’t think anyone switched side based on a good argument. IMO an argument rarely convinces, even if it convinces, it rarely changes faith.

I don’t know even I am making any sense. :smack:

6

Well it’s true that some things are a matter of opinion (e.g. best film / song). However logic is still the right way to approach any discussion.

Well the Bible is the Word of God for Christians (although there are many interpretations of it.)
The Old Testament is used by Judaism.

However the statement “there’s no proof for God” is certainly true.
We have no evidence that Ra arranges for the Sun to rise each morning.
There is no sign of Thor controlling thunderstorms.
We only have four books, written 30 - 100 years after the event, as the entire basis for the Resurrection, and anyway Judaism states it hasn’t happened yet.

It’s tough being young. I am certain however that the way people behave says far more about them than their religion (or lack of it). A fanatical fundamentalist who despises anyone not of his particular sect deserves far less respect than a polite atheist.

Nothing wrong with politeness!
You usually can’t control what people believe in. Gosh, some of them even deny evolution! :eek:
Science is **not ** a religion, merely an effective method of understanding the Universe.
Science has brought us the Internet, space travel and the genetic code.

What ‘good’ emotional appeals for irrationality are there?
Scientific types will **of course ** change sides based on evidence. The Sun does not orbit the Earth. (Religion based on dogma has a hard time keeping up :smiley: )

Stick with it - learning to express yourself is jolly useful. :cool: