I didn’t really read through too many responses so I imagine this was already said…
It is my opinion that God knows that it’s pretty hard not too sin, but he wants us to try not to. Like he puts us on this earth and says, “OK now go make the best of it.” So we’re expected to try not to sin, but it will happen if it’s in our nature, and then we should ask forgiveness for those sins. And being baptized, I guess, can also help.
Does that sound at all correct?
Oops oh yeah and one other thing… in the bible Jesus doesn’t hang out with all the rich, cool people- he hangs out with the prostitutes, the poor, and the leppers.
Evil was present in the garden before man’s fall because God had already created the angels and Lucifer and rebelled and fallen before God put man in the garden. God created angels the same as us, with free will.
If every time God creates something with “free will,” it decides it doesn’t want to play by his rules, does that say something significant about God? Or something significant about “free will?”
Noely, you said…
“JOEL: you said that all you know is that if someone dies with mortal sin and is unrepented they go to hell, that seems more like the law from the middle ages than the law of an eternal intellegent being(intellegence that we could never comprhend). what if the guy had been one of the most devoted good guys in the entire existence all his life, then one night gets depressed gets really drunk hits someone with his car, then in a panic drags the body to the river, or whatever. but then a week later he dies and goes up to the pearly gates having never repented, and god sends him off the heaven, “oh lord, if only if only!”. now… thats the way it would happen if god WAS a human being, but something that set the motion of existence then subsequently life then somewhere along the line a kind of evolved ape called man, wpuld be a bit more intellegent than this and would not resort to punishing a spirit that does not even know its true self. i think that in light of an eternal being its pretty cruel to send it to hell judged on how it led a life captured whithin a retarded beast such as a human being, not too mention being stuck in this hell hole of a world!”
Well, I understand completely what you’re saying, but here’s my point on the subject. Whether you get into heaven or hell depends on what’s truly in your heart. What kind of person you are. Environmental factors, such as your friends, family, Coworkers, and so on play a part, but we are ultimately responsible for what we do. For example, if somebody gets drunk, and crashes into something and/or kills someone, do we just go, oh, they were drunk, so they deserve no jail time and don’t have to pay for any damages that they caused because an outside influence impaired their judgment? No, of course not. We give them a lighter sentence than somebody totally sober, but we punish them nonetheless.
When talking about the Christian concept of where people go after death, it’s ultimately determined by what kind of people we are, what’s in our hearts. In a lot of Protestantism, just believing in Christ is enough. For thought’s of us who are Catholics, we have to make an effort to live good lives, because simply believing in Christ isn’t enough (you know, the whole “Faith without works is dead.” thing) Anyway, this life is very complicated. All I can give you is my own opinions, and those of the Catholic church as I understand them, so here goes…
Those who live in parts of the world where Christ isn’t known, but try to live good lives, can get to heaven. The mentally ill, the retarded, and others with mental problems that impair their moral judgments, can probably get to heaven because they have a legitimate reason for not following all the moral codes. Those who die at very young ages can get into heaven because they were to young to commit sin, or even know what it is.
Somebody who lives a very good life, gets caught up in something bad, and tries to hide it and forget it can get into heaven if the motive is fear and confusion, because those are not evil. However, those who are of sound mind, know the difference between right and wrong, and still choose evil, those are the ones who don’t get into heaven. Those who knowingly choose wrong over right. And if you’re going to give me the Oh yeah, and who determines right and wrong? I’ll have to say, the wife beaters, the rapists, the molesters, the Nazis, members of white supremacist groups. And if, like I feel you might do, throw at me something like…You’re Catholic right? What about those priests who molested those children. My answer is, I don’t think God wants those people in heaven either.
I am under the impression that if God does exist, then God only becomes ‘meaningful’ if this is understood to be the biggest lie in the Bible.
“The path is narrow and few will enter.”
Truth: Everyone enters
The pop culture expression:
“The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn’t exist.”
Truth: It is not tricky at all to convince people of non-existence of an existant entity; it is tricky to convince people of the existence of a non-existent entity.
-Justhink
This thread isn’t about trying to convince you, or anybody else of the existence or non existence of any kind of deity or spiritual being. The actual meaning of the thread has been lost along the way with each post, but being the person who started the thread, I can tell you, it isn’t about convincing anybody one way or the other.
hey joel,
i think here you actually disproved the original statement of your post…when you look at what you’re saying above, it appears its pretty easy not to sin, just dont be a wife beater, a rapist etc…
hey there might even be hope for me, apart from my lack of belief but i’m sure god will understand my doubts, hes a pretty smart dude! 
only kiddin man, well kind of.
in your original statement you asked why did god make it so hard to sin?, what acts(everyday sins) could you think of that one would have to commit so that god might be displeased and could send some one to hell, at what times do you personally asked that question?
Woah, back this thread up!
The OP, in my opinion, makes a flawed assumption in its premise.
Since when? I could have sworn that I read something about God forgiving sins somewhere in the Bible.
Besides,
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”
-Romans 3:23
“By grace you have been saved by faith. Not by works, so that no one may boast.”
-Ephesians 2:8,9
It’s faith, not “not-sinning” that is important.
Also, dalovindj, according to my personal beliefs, NOBODY in the world has the correct morality. Not even one. Simply making the sincere attempt to “love thy neighbor” is good enough.
Oops. I kind of missed the second page, so my remarks might be a tad off-base.
Oh well. :smack:
Hey Noely, as for what you said…
“hey joel,
i think here you actually disproved the original statement of your post…when you look at what you’re saying above, it appears its pretty easy not to sin, just dont be a wife beater, a rapist etc…
hey there might even be hope for me, apart from my lack of belief but i’m sure god will understand my doubts, hes a pretty smart dude! only kiddin man, well kind of.
in your original statement you asked why did god make it so hard to sin?, what acts(everyday sins) could you think of that one would have to commit so that god might be displeased and could send some one to hell, at what times do you personally asked that question?”
There’s more to sin than just what I listed. In Christianity, sins aren’t just limited to actions, you can also have sinfull thoughts (I.E lusting after another woman if you’re married, hateing somebody for no just cause, not forgiving somebody who wronged you but is now truely repentant…) and things like the 10 commandments are a bit more complicated than they appear. For example, under Thou shalt not steal, if your work is paying you for work you should be doing, but it turns out that you’re not doing it, or you’re slacking off and just doing a little bit of it, you’re, in effect stealing from the company. So there are lots of little ways you can sin every day (or at least that’s the view of a Christian).
Soup_du_jour
Wow, your first couple of comments made you sound like a Protestant, but your last one…what belief are you?
Anyway, as for your first two Prodestant “Faith Alone” scripture posts, all I have to say is…
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
-James 2:26
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
-Philippians 2:12
God does NOT have a sinful nature. His is holy…Isaiah 43:3For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopa and Seba for thee.In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.
Titus 1:2
If God cannot lie, how could He commit any other sin? Many Scriptures affirm His holiness. No sinfulness or unholiness entered the universe until satan fell.
Since you’ve quoted Scriptures I’ll do the same. What about these?
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God (this clearly shows some perish, while others are saved).
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (plainly says those who believe have life, those who don’t, don’t)
It’s true that God forgives sin and we are saved by grace. It’s also true that this forgiveness comes only through acceptance of Christ and His sacrifice for us. You may not think so but sin is a very serious thing with God. Thank God He sent a Saviour so that by believing on Him I can have eternal life.
I just want to let you know, His4Ever, that I take personal offense, in behalf of my non-Christian friends, at this verse being quoted by elitist Christians as “proof that Jesus said he was the only way to salvation” – when read in context, it means something quite different than the isolated quote of the single verse would indicate. I’d welcome opportunity to discuss this, in a new thread if you would like.
Other than that, you make some excellent points. We are saved by the grace of God, not by anything, including believing hard, that we might do.
Don’t think I’m ready to get started on another debate, but I do have a question for you. Are you a universal redemptionist? By this I mean, do you believe that everyone is automatically saved and there’s no need to accept Christ’s sacrifice for sin on a personal level? I don’t agree with this teaching but get the impression that you do, am I correct? If we debated this, I’m afraid we’d just get boggged down again with the usual “your interpretation, my interpretation” thing again. Our beliefs about the Bible evidently aren’t the same. I don’t mind talking about these things sometimes if people don’t start insinuating that because of the “logical” arguments they think they bring that I must change my beliefs. So I’m really trying not to say a whole lot right now. My belief that Jesus is the only way to heaven will never change so a discussion of the matter is probably not a good idea.
No, I’m not a universalist.
However, I have a very firm conviction that the Lord will not let something so precious as a person’s soul depend on our feeble efforts. While each of us is saved by His grace, we accept that by putting our trust in Him. As you may have noticed (:)!) there are more than a few around here who have not yet found themselves moved to put their trust in Him – and much of what we say often tends to drive people away from Him rather than towards Him. I try to be the sort of person whose life and comments here speak of who my Lord is, as the most effective witness I can be on an Internet message board. But I am convinced that:
(a) For free will and the choice to turn to God to be meaningful, the choice to turn from Him has to exist, with the consequence of Hell. In my view, He never gives up while there is still hope, but (and I use the metaphor of a drug addict burning out his brains to explain my view here) there comes a point when only the “ash” of what was a human soul is left – and that cannot choose for Him, but is rather left in a state of regret, suffering, and virtual annihilation.
(b) God is stronger than Death. That’s a given. But the consequence of this is that one’s death is not the point at which one can no longer turn to Him. Does this imply a Purgatory? Maybe, but not necessarily. It leaves room for reincarnation, but does not require it. What it does imply is an ongoing readiness on the part of God to take and nurture anyone who is ready to turn to Him in faith.
© Most of our judgments are time-limited and not applicable. God’s viewpoint is eternal. The least likely person to turn to Christ, in the probable eyes of the Eleven and their followers a year or so after His Crucifixion, was that legalistic Pharisee who persecuted them as heretics, Saul of Tarsus.
Whatever God has planned, it will not be what we expect.
What I see as objectionable in that passage is that it is the classic line of everyone who wants to say, “Hey, turning to Jesus (in the way my church considers proper) is the only way to Heaven” – and in context, what Jesus is doing with it is to comfort (one of) His disciples on the evening before He goes to His death – “Hey, dummy, don’t ask me to ‘show you the Father’ or ‘show you the Way’ – I am the Way; if you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father. Live as I have lived, following My example, put your trust in Me. I’ll bring you to Him.” There’s a big difference between that and answering an altar call or being immersed three times or speaking in tongues or whatever the shibboleth of one’s particular denomination is.
Cool?
No, I’m not a universalist.
However, I have a very firm conviction that the Lord will not let something so precious as a person’s soul depend on our feeble efforts. While each of us is saved by His grace, we accept that by putting our trust in Him. As you may have noticed (:)!) there are more than a few around here who have not yet found themselves moved to put their trust in Him – and much of what we say often tends to drive people away from Him rather than towards Him. I try to be the sort of person whose life and comments here speak of who my Lord is, as the most effective witness I can be on an Internet message board. But I am convinced that:
(a) For free will and the choice to turn to God to be meaningful, the choice to turn from Him has to exist, with the consequence of Hell. In my view, He never gives up while there is still hope, but (and I use the metaphor of a drug addict burning out his brains to explain my view here) there comes a point when only the “ash” of what was a human soul is left – and that cannot choose for Him, but is rather left in a state of regret, suffering, and virtual annihilation.
(b) God is stronger than Death. That’s a given. But the consequence of this is that one’s death is not the point at which one can no longer turn to Him. Does this imply a Purgatory? Maybe, but not necessarily. It leaves room for reincarnation, but does not require it. What it does imply is an ongoing readiness on the part of God to take and nurture anyone who is ready to turn to Him in faith.
© Most of our judgments are time-limited and not applicable. God’s viewpoint is eternal. The least likely person to turn to Christ, in the probable eyes of the Eleven and their followers a year or so after His Crucifixion, was that legalistic Pharisee who persecuted them as heretics, Saul of Tarsus.
Whatever God has planned, it will not be what we expect.
What I see as objectionable in that passage is that it is the classic line of everyone who wants to say, “Hey, turning to Jesus (in the way my church considers proper) is the only way to Heaven” – and in context, what Jesus is doing with it is to comfort (one of) His disciples on the evening before He goes to His death – “Hey, dummy, don’t ask me to ‘show you the Father’ or ‘show you the Way’ – I am the Way; if you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father. Live as I have lived, following My example, put your trust in Me. I’ll bring you to Him.” There’s a big difference between that and answering an altar call or being immersed three times or speaking in tongues or whatever the shibboleth of one’s particular denomination is.
Cool?
So you believe that a “loving” and “forgiving” god would send a person to hell for having lustfull thoughts within a marriage. thats a bit harsh. going to hell because of the instinctive mechanisms of the human mind. i’ve been in a loving relationship with my girlfriend for the past 3 years, and im not gonna sit here and say that i dont find myself attracted to other women and the same for her been attracted to other men. but the fact is that does’nt matter because these attractions are only human nature same way a piece of food makes the mouth water. we love each other, have been friends our entire lives and know that we would never do anything to hurt one another, and if i was to find out at the pearly gates that i was not welcome on account of this you’d be able to bet good money that there would be no other human soul beyond in the kingdom of heaven. another thing about marriage is that its a ceremony concieved by man, and to be honest is and never has been nothing more than a legal bond. i’ve been to a lot of weddings and never once saw anything that resembled a god anywhere near that alter. if there was a god he would’nt go changing his manifesto on account of whatever little rules we make down here on earth. sorry for rambling man, but i’m sure your just worrying over nothin, enjoy life down here on earth, hope there actually an after life that is close to mans assumptions, don’t do wrong by your fellow man or woman, open your mind to everything and then i’m sure god will be more than happy to take you into his heavenly flock
