I declare a jihad and a fatwa on the "can't afford to go to college" plot point.

The BBQ Pit
41

[QUOTE=monstro]
I think vocation ed courses should be provided as electives. Or, special five-year-programs could be established where students take four years of regular college curricula, and then in the fifth year take classes that are specifically geared to the work-a-day world in their field.

For instance, in the typical biology major, students take a year of general biology, intro courses in ecology, microbiology, cell biology, genetics, statistics, etc., and then move on to speciality elective courses like marine biology, plant physiology, virology, and microbial ecology. Electives might also include technical writing, public speaking, senior seminar, and research credits. Great offerings, to be sure, but not geared to specific occupations. I’d like to see added to the menu courses where students can learn marketable skills. Perhaps instead of a full semester, they can organized in six-week long workshops.

Some coures applicable to my field would be:

  • Wetland delineation
  • Animal handling and care.
  • Aquaculture
  • Horticulture
  • Endangered species surveys/inventories
  • Geographic Information System
  • Survival training and diving certification
  • Boat maintenance
  • Database management
  • Grant proposal writing

You find these skills listed on many job descriptions. Maybe students are lucky and can obtain a few of them through experience in internships, but rarely are these things taught in a formal classroom setting (except for GIS and horticulture). A wildlife biology/natural resources major who can put all of these things down on a resume can grab any job they want, no matter where he or she went to school.

I’m not saying this model would apply to all fields. I can only speak for my own.
[/QUOTE]

Sure, I’m with you. All I’m saying is, I don’t know that it would apply to things like Engineering. IIRC, I needed 128 hours of courses for my BSME, and of that the breakdown was something like:

  • Engineering core: 54 hours
  • Engineering electives: 16 hours
  • Math required (Calc1-3,Diff EQ, Stats): 21 hours
  • Physics required (Phys1, 2, An. Mech): 11 hours
  • Chem required: 5 hours
    Total: 107 hours

Then there was 6 hours of required English, for a total of 113 hours of courses. Then each student had 15 hours - about 1 semester - of electives.

42

[QUOTE=monstro]
Very true. And an internship is actually better than a formal course because it gives you hands-on experience and provides networking references.

I guess I’m thinking courses have an advantage over an internship in that they would be easier to get into. As an undergraduate, I had a summer internship in one of the labs at my university, but there were a limited number of slots available for this program, especially since the pool of candidates was drawn from all over the country. And as you said, students who can afford the no/low stipends of an intership are more likely to avail themselves of these opportunities. On the other hand, a course could be paid for through work study/scholarships/loans and could be scheduled around a busy work or class schedule.

An additional benefit would be that students could arrange for themselves a diverse set of skills, not just a narrow set that you might get from a single internship.

I think a model like mine would also help employers. I started a thread a few weeks ago in which posters complained about the low quality of recent college graduates. Apparently, at least some employers expect colleges to be involved in vocational education and are often disappointed.

An ideal university, IMHO, would require a classical college education but provide both internships and job-training curricula.
[/QUOTE]

I have a sort of faith–and it may be idealistic–that those skills that can be taught effectively in the university already are, and that those that aren’t, can’t be–they are things that are too nebulous, or too dynamic, or simply too hands-on–there are things that take hours to teach and about thirty seconds to learn if you can jump right in and do it.

There are enough internships for teachers and doctors and lawyers because schools recognize the essential nature of on-the job experience and so have whole departments aimed at arranging them. Honors programs in business or international relations often require–and help to arrange–internships. And, in my experience, children of professionals go off to college with the understanding that they should be on the lookout for internships that dovetail with what skills they want to develop. I would think developing these sorts of programs for other majors and reconstructing majors to either require or at least strongly encourage/push some sort of signifigant internship would be more advantageous than adding another year on to school.

43

The truth is that the bachelor’s degree is quickly becoming the equivalent of the high school diploma in the 1950s and 1960s. It isn’t so much that you learn the practical skills for a trade, but a degree is a proxy for a certain competency in the area of writing, critical thinking, general knowledge, and organization. Most jobs don’t expect you to know how to cover all aspects at the entry level; rather they expect you to be able to learn them fairly rapidly. (So parents, don’t panic when your kids want to major in Art History. If they don’t find a job in the field, they have skills that are very translatable to other vocations.)

But back to the OP. The barriers to college access are great, and they’re attitudinal as much as they are actual. Someone mentioned upthread how effective trade schools are at recruiting students via TV and radio ads. Not only that, they have staff who expressly help students obtain aid (it’s in the school’s best interest to bring in students who qualify for aid; however, I can’t speak for the effectiveness of these advisors). I remember being at a meeting with some of the Harvard folks discussing their program for low-income students. At the time, Harvard was offering complete grant support for students whose family income was $60,000 or less. I asked the official how they intended to get the word out to the people who might benefit from this program. His answer was that they were working closely with counselors and schools.

Here’s the problem. They’re not marketing directly to students and parents, like DeVry and the other institutions do. And it’s not as if a kid is going to catch an ad about Harvard during football season. I remember distinctly wondering how one even got into Harvard, as when I was in high school I never saw or heard anything about the place, while most schools I recognized from brochures, athletics, or our teachers’ knowledge. (My counselor was worthless. There are great counselors out there, but they tend to be overburdened with advisees, and it really is incumbent on the student to work with - and sometimes around - the counselor, who might have already decided that a student is “state school material,” or “CC material,” and never even introduce the idea of private colleges and selective schools.)

As weird as it would sound to hear a Harvard ad during Judge Judy, I suggested that if the Harvard folks were serious about getting the word out, they might consider such a plan. Of course Harvard isn’t going to have an ad right after DeVry, but why not have a classy ad during primetime? I guarantee you that every kid in my high school knew about DeVry and the military, because the ads and recruiters were never far away. And those programs are relatively easy to apply to - someone will walk you through every step of the way and answer all your questions. I wish colleges and universities used the same structure.

A note about the “difficulty” of college. One of the most enduring myths about postsecondary education is the idea that one has to be a genius to apply to, do well in, and graduate from college. I always tell high school kids that it takes more hard work than smarts. The C students at good public and private schools are attending liberal arts colleges, while their equivalents in poor schools just don’t see the possibility. I swear I met more dumb people in college and grad school than I did in high school. Seriously, it was about junior year when I realized my whole high school - mostly poor, mostly Black and Latino, mostly with non-college educated parents - could probably make it at my college. They, like me, just didn’t see it as a right or a certainty.

44

People frequently can’t afford a particular college experience- but that’s not the same as not being able to afford college. I wasn’t able to afford the “go away to school and graduate in 4 years” experience without a huge amount of debt. Being from a working- class family, I did have a problem with that much debt, especially since there was no guarantee it would be financially worth it. I was however, able to afford “live at home, continue working ,go to the City University of New York and take five years to graduate”, so that’s what I did. And graduated completely debt-free. Although CUNY tuition has gone up in the last 20 years, it hasn’t gone up that much. It was about $1000/yr when I started, $2500 a year when I graduated, and is now $4000/yr.

What  amazes me is to see my co-workers, still complaining about paying off their student loans, look at me like I'm crazy because my daughter is going to "miss out on the college experience" and enroll at a CUNY college. Yep, she'll miss out on living in a dorm,but she'll also miss out on paying for that experience for 20 years. She'll even miss out on having to work to pay for some of her tuition. Since both my husband and I avoided taking out loans, we can easily pay tuition at public colleges for both of our kids.
45

[QUOTE=Queen Bruin]
Erm, what’s cheaper for a California resident? Seriously? CSUN is only a few grand a year cheaper, and I would have been slapped with nonresident tuition no matter which state school I applied to. I acknowledge clear ignorance on not getting counseling, however.
[/QUOTE]

Actually CSUN is quite a bit cheaper.
I also agree with the OP.
My son had a large sum of money given to him by his grandfather when he was born for his college. When he was in high school, we sat and talked about what he could do for college. His options were:

  1. UCLA for 4 years Would have wiped out his college fund, and then some
  2. CSUN for 4 years, Would have left some money in his college fund
  3. Community college for 2 years and transfer to UCLA $ similar to #2
  4. Community college for 2 years and transfer to CSUN. Cheapest of the 4.

he choose option #4 with a twist. He worked at a part time job and paid for all of his college cash. (I think I pitched in for books or tuition a couple of times.) he spent 1 quarter over 2 years at the community college, and CSUN for two years. He graduated with a bachelors that he paid cash for. :smiley: Not only that he was able to put some cash aside into a savings account. Did I mention that I am very proud of him? FTR he graduated in 2004.
Now he did live at home, and I paid for all of those costs. But it is possible to attend college and get a degree without being the son of daddy Bigbucks.

46

[QUOTE=Voyager]

I never watch that kind of show, but does community college come up at all? That’s a way of getting started for almost nothing.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll second the community college idea.
I went to a community college out of highschool and got a scholarship that ended up more than paying for the cost of the community college in the first year of a 4-year college. Plus I got basic classes out of the way, things like english, calc 1, entry-level sciences, etc. No sense paying 30k/year to take those when you can learn 'em just as well at 2k.

47

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
Well, congratulations on your marriage, first of all
[/quote]

Thanks.

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
…but am I to understand that you had a scholarship, but didn’t want to go to that school? Then how can you say that you were unable to afford college when what you mean is that you were unable to afford to go to the college of your choice? You HAD the opportunity and ability to attend higher education, but you CHOSE not to, right?
[/QUOTE]

Forgive me, I should have explained better. It was a full-tuition scholarship for full-time college attendance at a school across the country, that didn’t teach anything I was interested in learning (computer science). The scholarship, however, did not qualify if you were a part-time student so I’d have had to get a full-time job as well (not uncommon but scary to be doing across the country, without family or friends), to pay for my living expenses, as the scholarship only covered tuition, and not books, living expenses, or really anything else. All to learn something I had very little knack for and was completely uninterested in. The only reason I got the scholarship is because one of my teachers, mistaking my ability to use a computer for comprehension of how they work (which I have learned more about now, I’ll admit), submitted me to some contest for it.

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
But how could you manage to screw up your credit at 17???
[/QUOTE]

Due to the fact that the state of Texas requires you to be a certain age by a certain date (Sept. 1; my birthday is Sept. 29) to enroll in pre-Kindergarten, I was almost 19 when I graduated from high school. I got approved for a few credit cards, unfortunately right at a time when I and my family were at our worst (my father had just gotten off drugs, my mom was supporting all of us). So I racked up a ton of credit card debt (well, a ton to someone who makes minimum wage…luckily, it’s all paid off now) buying things like food, cold medicine, etc. when we were out of money. Hey, I hate debt, but I love having food in the house. Entirely my fault, of course, but it’s a decision I’ll defend to the death, and I’ve paid my debt off through honest, hard labor.

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
But it’s not the system’s fault, really.
[/QUOTE]

I will never claim that I or anyone else has an unalienable right to college education. It’d be nice, but hey, it’s not the case. I’m not going to bitch and moan because I didn’t have the money to go to college and “the system” wouldn’t pay for it. I’m simply pointing out that it is, indeed, possible to be unable to go to college. I am NOW in a position to fix that. At 19, I was not, through my parents’ mistakes and my own.

Now, I am very much aware of how many scholarships and things there are available. The problem is that I didn’t qualify for very many of them; not enough to make putting of making money when my family needed it worth the break of busting my ass at college. I worked at the college bookstore for a semester, and I learned all about it. More than I really wanted to, actually. Anyway, the point is, I know exactly how much help there is available to the world at large. There really are those of us who fall through the cracks, and they really aren’t that uncommon.

Now, the assholes who don’t try in high school get what’s coming to them. Me, I graduated with a 3.0, including my fuckoff year of 9th grade, and that wasn’t even me trying, that was me doing my minimum to get by. NOW I qualify for a ton of scholarships and financial aid, and trust me, next semester I’ll be using them to my advantage. But back then, I just kind of accepted that I’d dug my own grave and I’d have to lie in it until I could claw my way out. Luckily it’s only taken 3.5 years, instead of a lifetime.

~Tasha

48

[QUOTE=Yag Rannavach]
I’ll second the community college idea.
I went to a community college out of highschool and got a scholarship that ended up more than paying for the cost of the community college in the first year of a 4-year college. Plus I got basic classes out of the way, things like english, calc 1, entry-level sciences, etc. No sense paying 30k/year to take those when you can learn 'em just as well at 2k.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. CCs can teach quite a few skills and also offer programs and certificates in a number of high-demand areas, such as nursing, paralegal, EMT, and sports medicine, to name only a few.

I went to a CC before going on to a CSU.

49

[QUOTE=Clothahump]
Aroo?

They don’t file taxes? Eventually the nice folks over at the IRS will find out, and they will come to assist your folks in filing those taxes. The process will be similar to being gangraped by the Dallas Cowboys, wearing sandpaper condoms.
[/QUOTE]

Haha. Yeah, we know, although every year so far they’ve been owed money…usually only like $50, if that, but they’ve, so far, not owed money. Thank goodness.

~Tasha

50

[QUOTE=Clothahump]
Aroo?

They don’t file taxes? Eventually the nice folks over at the IRS will find out, and they will come to assist your folks in filing those taxes. The process will be similar to being gangraped by the Dallas Cowboys, wearing sandpaper condoms.
[/QUOTE]

You only need to file taxes if you owe money to the IRS or want your rebate. If you overpay and don’t mind giving the government extra money, you don’t have to file taxes.

51

[QUOTE=Inner Stickler]
You only need to file taxes if you owe money to the IRS or want your rebate. If you overpay and don’t mind giving the government extra money, you don’t have to file taxes.
[/QUOTE]

No, false. If you have a requirement to file like if “Until I got married in February, I didn’t qualify for FAFSA because my parents don’t file taxes or keep tax records, and even if they did they* make too much money on paper for me to qualify*.” then you do have to file and there can be severe penalties for failing to do so, like 5 years in a Federal Prison.

52

If your under a certain age, and your parents make enough money, you can’t get much in the way of student loans (at least not federally funded, private perhaps). Sometimes parents that don’t have a college fund still make like 50k a year. Good luck getting 4k to go 15 credit hours from a Stafford loan when your parents make that much.

53

Community college is cheap: Yeah, I went this route, but the degrees you can get there are limited and some (like the one I attended) had some strict rules about taking classes above and beyond the major you chose. And the majors were limited. So you could work toward and AS in biology but if you wanted to take Calculus II and didn’t have any more slots for general electives, you couldn’t take it unless you were paying cash. So yeah, you can get some of the little classes out of the way, but you still gotta take some at the University. (which for me, at Mizzou costs about 4k a semester for 12-15 hours and increases every semester, not to mention books… 200 used from Amazon, cheaper than bookstore)

Night classes: Not all your classes can be at night. I tried to do this, but the degrees are limited ( not a lot of biology classes at night, even IT here at Mizzou has no evening classes or an online or special working adults version of the degree here). I know a few people that did this at various other colleges, but every one of them said “I paid MORE for the night classes…” Hardly conducive to a tight budget. Also hard to do if both parties in the relationship work and you are raising kids.

It CAN be done in quite a few cases, but “can’t afford to go to college” happens more than you think. Some are poor choices sure, but if you want to define “can’t afford to go to college” as “You make perfect life decisions about credit and finances, but still can’t go to college” you might have a point, but it is kind of circular reasoning. Lots of people make poor choices early in life and have to work around them. Sometimes, if you don’t go early, it is next to impossible.

I was able to make it, some of my friends were not. Some were due to poor choices, and some were due to unwillingness to make some sacrifices.

54

Oops, also wanted to say that not everybody has been graciously blessed with abundant intelligence, some people read slower, learn slower and have trouble with time management. Some of this can be learned and practiced, but balancing a 40+ hour work week with family and kids as well as going to school even part time can be a challenge. Keeping this up for greater than 5-6 years can be more than most people can bear. (going part time)

So while I sort of understand the sentiment of the OP in regards to opportunities abound for even those with financial problems, pointing fingers and saying “everybody can ‘afford’ to go to college” and implying that they are lazy and poor previous choices be damed, saying everybody CAN go to college is absolutely wrong. Sometimes it just isn’t ‘affordable’ in time or money.

55

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
Community college is cheap: Yeah, I went this route, but the degrees you can get there are limited
I was able to make it, some of my friends were not. Some were due to poor choices, and some were due to unwillingness to make some sacrifices.
[/QUOTE]

If you take all your lower division classes (general Ed) at a community college, and then transfer as my son did, you wind up with a 4 year degree. His degree is says California State University not 1/2 University + 1/2 Community College.
If money is tight, going to a community college is a great idea. Nobody said it was easy, but it is doable if you are motivated.

56

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
Oops, also wanted to say that not everybody has been graciously blessed with abundant intelligence, some people read slower, learn slower and have trouble with time management. Some of this can be learned and practiced, but balancing a 40+ hour work week with family and kids as well as going to school even part time can be a challenge. Keeping this up for greater than 5-6 years can be more than most people can bear. (going part time)

So while I sort of understand the sentiment of the OP in regards to opportunities abound for even those with financial problems, pointing fingers and saying “everybody can ‘afford’ to go to college” and implying that they are lazy and poor previous choices be damed, saying everybody CAN go to college is absolutely wrong. Sometimes it just isn’t ‘affordable’ in time or money.
[/QUOTE]

Well, you know, college isn’t for everybody. I think it’s sad that college has been pitched as the “next step” for every single high school student and indeed replaced the high school degree as a job qualification, while vocational schools and apprenticeships have fallen down some black hole. It’s a shame that some kids who just aren’t cut out for college either don’t do anything, go and then drop out, etc, when they could be really good plumbers. My plumber makes a hell of a lot more money than my masters’ degree does, I tell you what. Be a locksmith, be a mechanic, be a chef! There used to be a lot more emphasis on vocational education and I’m sorry that there are a whole lot of kids in college who really shouldn’t be.

57

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
Well, you know, college isn’t for everybody. I think it’s sad that college has been pitched as the “next step” for every single high school student and indeed replaced the high school degree as a job qualification, while vocational schools and apprenticeships have fallen down some black hole. It’s a shame that some kids who just aren’t cut out for college either don’t do anything, go and then drop out, etc, when they could be really good plumbers. My plumber makes a hell of a lot more money than my masters’ degree does, I tell you what. Be a locksmith, be a mechanic, be a chef! There used to be a lot more emphasis on vocational education and I’m sorry that there are a whole lot of kids in college who really shouldn’t be.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I have a “traditional” 4 year degree from a private liberal arts college. B.A. in Communications, heavy on the English. My husband went into a trade where he learned on the job and they paid him to go to additional classes (about 2 years worth at Community College.) Guess who earns almost twice as much as I do? I am still paying back my college loans, too.

I am about to start taking additional online classes to specialize in technical writing. For those wondering what to do with an English degree, this is an upcoming and growing field if you have a mind for it. Maybe not for the creative writing types, but those who are solid writers and can organize technical information. Online classes also seem to be cheaper than traditional classes, another option for those looking for education. I think some people lose sight of the fact that you are ultimately trying to learn a skill, not just learn interesting stuff. I know when I was in college I didn’t really understand that. Education for its own sake is good and all that, but a degree doesn’t do anything for you by itself. You have to know how to do something when all is said and done.

58

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
Well, you know, college isn’t for everybody. I think it’s sad that college has been pitched as the “next step” for every single high school student and indeed replaced the high school degree as a job qualification, while vocational schools and apprenticeships have fallen down some black hole. It’s a shame that some kids who just aren’t cut out for college either don’t do anything, go and then drop out, etc, when they could be really good plumbers. My plumber makes a hell of a lot more money than my masters’ degree does, I tell you what. Be a locksmith, be a mechanic, be a chef! There used to be a lot more emphasis on vocational education and I’m sorry that there are a whole lot of kids in college who really shouldn’t be.
[/QUOTE]

You are 100% correct. Believe me, I know some of these kids/adults.

59

[QUOTE=Queen Bruin]
I suppose I’ll elaborate on my situation, as it more closely examines Dr Deth’s post.

I am a resident of the state of California. I began my residence here before I turned 18. I attended a California community college for several years, since I had to make up for dropping out of high school. I got accepted to UCLA. My parents are divorced, my father lives in California and my mother in Colorado. Dad’s out of the picture. Mom’s doing what she can to help me, and it isn’t much, about $100 a month and a little more when she can send it. The $100 stipend I am receiving comes from the VA through my stepdad’s service in Vietnam. My mom has to claim me on her income tax to do this, and I consent. I had no idea what effect this would have on my residency requirements; aside from my husband and my aunt, I had never had any close contact with anyone over a high school education. Ignorance on my part, and fought pretty well, through a lot of pain.

I’m living with my boyfriend at the time (now husband) and we’re barely scraping a living. Because I am 23 at this time and unmarried, I have to include my mom’s income on my FAFSA. I get slammed with out of state tuition to the tune of $30k/year. I don’t have the credit to take out loans, and having a certain sense of pride as a fucking adult, I won’t stomp my feet and throw a tantrum and demand my Mom get a PLUS loan. Because of my non-resident status and the amount of money my stepdad had made that year, I was automatically disqualified for a large number of scholarships.

[/quote]

I’ve been looking at some FAQs on dependency status, and I don’t think you qualify as a dependent of your mothers. (I am not a lawyer or accountant.) I think you need to research this. It sounds to me like you are losing a lot to get $100 a month. Maybe I misunderstand your situation.

60

[QUOTE=Sattua]
What monstro says in an excellent argument for separating college from trade school–which frankly has already happened. College = liberal arts, trade school = engineering and technology. Really, it’s only the liberal arts (and some sciences, the kind that don’t make for good career foundations) that spout off about knowledge for the sake of knowlege. If you’re majoring in English, you’re declaring yourself to be part of the leisure class. If you need to get a job, get a degree that will get you a job.
[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering what you consider a trade school. My definition would be some place that taught you specific skills. An engineering program teaches the math and theory behind why things work, and sets you up to be able to continue your learning for your entire career. Many of the things I learned in the trade school I went to in Cambridge are no longer valid, but the theory still is.