Band name!
There is nothing wrong with taking an aircraft to it’s limit. That’s why it’s called a limit. They didn’t do it with any passengers on board. The Guardian says they did it for fun. Another word might be ‘experience.’ You never know when experience can come in handy.
Two men are dead - none of you have read the accident investigation report - because it hasn’t been completed yet. Yet you call them ‘yahoos,’ ‘stupid’ and ‘doofuses’ without having all the facts.
I’m not defending, or accusing them. I’m merely pointing out that journalists know bugger all about aviation, and you shouldn’t believe everything you read. Once the NTSB has completed it’s investigation, then you can discuss to your hearts content.
Actually we can discuss it when we like.
Thanks. 
The article I read said that they were in contact with the tower until 8000 feet, so there was no spin recovery from 41k to 8k. After that, who knows.
Your call. Although I’m reminded of something Mark Twain said.
Here’s a story with somewhat more detail.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/13/AR2005061301551.html
You can, however, do one in Boeing 707.
Aaaahhh…Ohh-kay. I’m done trying to defend these guys.
carnivorousplant, you have the floor.
Is 41k the actual recommended limit for that plane? If so, I find it slightly disturbing that there’s no cushion between the recommendation and actual failure.
Also bear in mind that this particular aircraft had just come out of maintenance for a bleed air problem. The NTSB are also investigating the aircraft types history of ‘core locking’ which would have made an engine restart impossible.
My only point was that journalists rarely let facts get in the way of a good story, and that rather than impugn the characters of two guys who are no longer around to defend themselves, we should try and get all the facts first.
In retrospect I must apologize if I ridiculed dead guys.
Even if I think they were stupid.
Local radio (they left from Little Rock, AR) interviewed a retired FAA employee who lives in the state. He suggested that the airlines don’t pay the little guys enough “and they were doing it for fun”.
He also suggested that LR was on the way to being an airport that airlines most flew these small aircraft to.
I gotta ask, since I’m a ground-pounder and not a ‘zippersuit’.
How does one “flame out”? Is it as simple as blowing so hard on a backyard grill that the combustion goes out? I would think that if there are backup oxygen systems, backup control systems, there would be backup ignition systems.
Furthermore, can someone describe a the procedures in an “air start” of the engines? I’m an engineer, and have a basic understanding of jet engines [sub]I graduated from Embry-Riddle for goodness’ sake[/sub].
I just feel like I’m missing something here. . .
Tripler
But I totally understand the potential damage caused by a spin. :eek:
carnivorousplant,
here is the CVR transcript.
Question for those here that know such things: Am I right in thinking that this transcript suggests that they regained control, but couldn’t restart the engines, and were trying to glide to a landing?
Yeah - that’s how I read it, too. They stalled at altitude (possibly the engines were already failing at this point,) recovered, tried to restart the engines, failed to restart, tried to glide to an airport, realised they weren’t going to make it and speared in.
IAN gas turbine endorsed - I know some other dopers around here are, so maybe they can help me out.
If the intake airflow becomes disturbed, due to high angle of attack, thin atmosphere or low speed, there isn’t sufficient oxygen to sustain a flame, and hence the engine flame ‘goes out.’
Without the gas burning and expanding, the turbine begins to slow down, along with the compressor.
To restart, the igniters are switched on (they only run at engine start,) fuel introduced, airspeed increased to ‘windmill’ the turbine to the minimum operating speed, and ‘whooska!’ off she goes.
GorillaMan, I’m not sure if they were ever really out of control. But yes, the engines wouldn’t restart and they were trying to glide to a landing.
Reading the transcript, the engine failure was at about 21:55, and they didn’t ask for a routing to the nearest airport until 22:09, and crashed within sight of the airport at 22:15. If I understand correctly, the original delay was while they were descending to an altitude where they could restart the engines. Wouldn’t it have been a good idea (and pilots are supposed to know all these things in advance) to head for an airport while they had altitude to spare, in case the restart didn’t work.
Next time I talk with my dad I’ll have to ask him what his airline’s procedure would have been.
I don’t know what standard procedure is, but if I’m a pilot with two (out of two) dead engines, first I’m going to attempt to restart before I have my other pilot try to get an exact location and fumble with a chart to find the nearest airport, and try to navigate to a new course.
So were they screwing around or not? I wouldn’t try to have that much fun driving a car.
What is N 2?
kunilou, when I was taking lessons to get my license, one thing my instructor emphasized as absolute gospel was that when something went wrong, the first priority was “fly the airplane”. (The idea was not to get so preoccupied with the problem that you forget about the routine tasks of staying in the air. The link Duke of Rat posted looks like the flight crew did just that.) With the engine out, you need to make sure the plane doesn’t stall, so lower the nose to establish the best glide angle, and set the elevator trim to hold that speed.
Then start looking for a place to land. The sooner you can do that, the farther your glide range will be, and the more options you’ll have. First choice is an airport (and if the only one within range is Andrews Air Force Base, that’s where I’m heading), then a road, field, golf course, anything long and flat.
Then start trying to fix the problem.
But I’ve only ever flown single, piston engine planes. They don’t go very high (so the time and range you have if the engine quits are a lot less than an airliner), and there’s no chance to fly on one engine while you try to fix the other. The plane we’re talking about glided for about 20 minutes, and I’m not sure how easy it is to restart a turbine engine in flight. I was just wondering if those factors give them the leeway to not immediately seek out a landing field.