Don’t get me wrong. I prefer justice and Trump in prison. I’m merely noting my own surprise to find that Trump in prison is, to me, a less high priority than getting his enablers and co-conspirators in prison. Rightwingers can complain about a witchhunt, selective prosecution, political vendettas regarding Trump, and they will, but 40 or 80 or 120 separate juries finding his co-conspirators guilty of insurrection just makes the complaints seem silly.
I guess I just don’t get why you’d bother to prioritize them; this doesn’t strike me as a case of us only being able to do one or the other, or where doing either would be easy but doing both would be hard; it seems like, no, this is a case where we not only don’t need to assign priorities, but, AFAICT, have no reason to assign priorities…
I didn’t, for a long time.
I felt that Trump and his co-conspirators should all spend the rest of their lives behind bars.
Then I realized that putting all the conspirators (or nearly all–botched prosecutions and mistrials do occur when you’re talking about a very large group like this) in the clink do more to deter future insurrections than convicting Trump would, so I became much calmer when people around me panicked “We CAN’T let him skate him free!!”
So I thought I’d share my new understanding with all you fine, open-minded folks on the SD.
You can’t put everybody who was sympathetic to Trump’s attempted coup in jail. But you can give them an out by punishing Trump for their collective sins. I suspect Germany and Japan would not have returned to the community of sane nations if they didn’t have disgraced leaders to take the blame for crimes that were popularly supported by a huge chunk of either nation.
Fortunately, as @the_Other_Waldo_Pepper wisely points out, it doesn’t really matter which outcome you’re most rooting for. It will work out however it works out. I’m just noting that an outcome I had hoped for most devoutly, that of Trump getting a long prison sentence, actually had less impact than a large number of his aiders and abetters getting one.
Also please note, I’m allowing for the likelihood of a few miscreants going free–that’s just how our system of justice operates. And it’s not just those “sympathetic” to an insurrection–that would involve jailing a lot of my MAGA-friendly neighbors. I’m talking about those who committed high-level crimes in order for the insurrection to come close to succeeding.
As much as I would enjoy seeing Trump go to jail for his various crimes, I feel like he wouldn’t actually do so badly there. This is of course assuming (and I’ll say right up front that this is a big assumption) his ego can sustain the indignity of being sentenced to a prison term. But if he can get over that hill, he’s in a cage and yet he’s also free in so many ways. He doesn’t have to perform anymore. He doesn’t have to get up in front of crowds of people he despises and say ridiculous things in exchange for their diminishing applause. Whatever criminal acts were before him would now be behind him and there will be much less urgency for anyone to continue digging for more (although I am sure we’ll still be finding things out decades from now that will make us want to dig him up and put him on trial again). The guards would be polite to him, the inmates would likely be sympathetic to him (because let’s face it, there’s no way he’s going to land in Rikers Island) and he could spend his remaining days golfing at Club Fed.
Compare that to right now, where he’s a dancing monkey who is increasingly learning that keeping the tune is expensive and difficult. He has no friends, no allies and lukewarm support at best. His legal losses are starting to pile up and good lawyers won’t give him the time of day anymore. His brand is toxic. He still gets to be on the news every day but as a loser who is mocked. And the investigations are endless because he gave his enemies a lot of material to work with. So he gets to live with the constant feeling that the walls are closing in, the bank accounts are dwindling and every single person around him (including his own family) is probably a traitor who will sell him out at the first opportunity. Nothing he ever does, anywhere will ever be good enough. He can’t win by winning and he can’t win by cheating. He definitely can’t win by complaining. And he’ll never have a moment of rest. All he gets to be is “shorter of breath and one day closer to death.”
Let him continue to carry these burdens. There’s no way things get better for him even if he does somehow become POTUS again. Prison would be great but right now Trump is in Hell. Let him stay if he wants.
…I’m not sure why society should be giving your preference any weight.
The law is the law.
If you break the law, then it’s time for the wheels of justice to come into play.
The optics of the situation are immaterial. That’s a political consideration: not something for the justice system (in a rational world) to even consider.
This is Naive Hall of Fame material.
If this were remotely true, he would have been charged for the dozens of crimes he’s committed in public years ago. The only thing that’s protected him so far is his status, first as POTUS, then as ex-POTUS. If that’s not political, then nothing is.
That said, have I suggested that society should be giving my preferences any weight? I expressed my own preferences for the benefit of those who’ve suggested that I’m hoping that Trump avoids prison or that I’m some kind of Trump fan or apologist, which I consider fighting words. As the OP says, I just don’t care about his eventual fate, certainly not the way I used to care, because the deterrent effect of his imprisonment will have no bearing on future sociopathic egotists who we elect POTUS, and the imprisonment of his enablers will affect future potential enablers.
…what part of “in a rational world” did you not understand?
Out here in the rest of the world they are charging the former Presidents and leaders with crime committed in public years ago.
That you are advocating for something different, and that you concede that yeah, we should be charging him, but your system is so fundamentally broken it would be better if we just pretended that everything is fine, really says it all.
So it appears you don’t support the separation of powers. The legislative and the executive should control the judicial. And you think corruption is excusable in the name of the greater good.
Is that a correct summation of your position?
No. Keep fantasizing, though. I am interested in this world you have imagined.
…so how do we get to the point where Trump doesn’t spend a day in prison?
So far, we’re living in it.
Some of us, anyway.
…that would be a world where political will is influencing law enforcement decisions and the judiciary, correct?
And you are fine with that, because you don’t care if Trump doesn’t spend a day in prison? In fact you think its probably better that he doesn’t?
Keep spinning this contrary to what I’ve stated. I’m curious where you’ll end up with this tactic.
…it really isn’t a matter of public debate whether or not it is useful Trump goes to prison. Trump is a citizen just like anyone else. If he’s broken any laws then he should be prosecuted by the appropriate authorities and if convicted, serve the relevant punishment.
If that makes him a champion among his supporters: then so what? That can’t be a consideration here. Because if it does, and if you act on that, then your system is corrupt.
And how does this translate into
[go to jail] in your language? I’m stating that of the two desirable outcomes, Trump going to jail and his enablers going to jail, it is far more useful to society that his enablers go to jail.
I agree that sociopathic egotists gonna sociopathic egotise. Though we can’t know for certain I don’t see that the sticky endings of previous despots have acted as too much of a deterrent to those who would seek to emulate them. I mean, we don’t have a shortage of such people in the world.
I guess if you are of the mindset of a Donald Trump you can easily dismiss their dismal fates as the result of insufficient talent.
I think I see what you are getting at though. If we aren’t convinced that jailing him would be a strong deterrent and that targetting the enablers would be a greater discouragement to people of that mindset, then from a purely pragmatic POV maybe just acheiving the latter could be seen as a quicker, easier and more effective win.
After all, if the despots are going to rise anyway then starving them of capable lackeys would be the next best outcome.
Is that a fair summary of your position?
So I see why you are of that opinion but personally I do care that Trump remains unpunished. I don’t think that the barriers put in place against his conviction are insurmountable so I’m not ready to mentally resign myself to only one outcome or t’other.
I reckon it is still possible to see justice be done, punish both enablers and the former President and have both act as proper justice served and a deterrent clearly advertised.
…if there are two possible outcomes, and you think that this one: “his enablers go to jail” is the more useful one, then I don’t think that its unfair to assume that you consider “Trump going to jail” to not be useful, therefore “its better that he doesn’t.”
Or do you think that Trump going to jail could be useful as well? Isn’t that a third option?
Or are you judging this on some sort of a “sliding scale” of usefulness?
So your saying pick only one outcome.
I’ll take the head of the snake. That will dissuade others from trying again. The supporters of corruption will always be there. BUT if it is shown that the leader may not fair so well, it won’t be desirable to be a head honcho.
The supporters will wave their flags and scream and pound their fists but will be ineffective with out any leadership. We can pick up the supporters as they continue to commit their crimes.
It’s also important to put the leader away so they can’t pardon their army of… law-breakers is the nicest term I can come up with.
Fair enough.
There are several possible outcomes, some more plausible than others.
There is
- He is convicted and serves a long prison term
or
2A) He is never charged
2B) He is charged and found not guilty
2C) He is charged, found guilty, but lives for years appealing his case
2D) He is charged, found guilty, but pardoned by a future GOP president and future GOP Governors, so never spends a day in prison
2E) He is charged, found guilty, but for various political and practical reasons is sentenced to home confinement, which is in his case, limits him to the grounds of Mar-a-Lago, where he can watch TV and tweet as he orders McDonalds and Diet Coke, which might be his preference anyway.
Any of the Choice 2s will probably outrage his foes, among whom I include myself. I’m offering some meaningful comfort, as long as his enablers are imprisoned.