I think the last describes ISIS. As long as their military might accomplishes something, they feel special. It is their god. They are brutal murderers, and have to keep it up to maintain their cult of awe, similar to the ancient Aztecs I suppose but without the excuse of antiquity.
Even though classical Islam contains scenes of conquest, I can’t believe ISIS’ behavior can be considered Islamic. They are something else- a political cult maybe, or just an especially nasty terror group attempting to hijack a religion. Obama and others are right- no religion condones this. ISIS really isn’t Islamic.
I don’t care if your uncle was a Scotsman and he took sugar in his porridge. No true Scotsman would take sugar in his porridge.
Saying ISIS isn’t Muslim or “Islamic” is like insisting that the Crusaders weren’t “Christians” or that the Irgun terrorists who blew up the King David hotel and slaughtered 250 Arab civilians at Dir Yassin weren’t “Jews”.
ISIS is not the only thing that’s Islamic. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims; the vast, vast majority of them are not running around turning non-Muslim women into sex slaves and burning people alive and the rest of it. (If all the world’s Muslims were like ISIS, we would all be in deep, *deep/i] shit. Way deeper even than we all already are.)
ISIS is the most depraved, fanatical, batshit crazy, evil, and utterly contempible fringe of Islam. They make the Khomeinists in Iran look sane, reasonable, and respectful of the rights of women and religious minorities. Hell, they make the Saudis look good. Even motherfucking al Qaeda seems to think ISIS has gone too damned far. I have no doubt that an increasingly overwhelmingly large majority of Muslims are shocked and disgusted by ISIS and in general heartily sick of their shit.
But, yeah, they’re Muslims, and ISIS is one small, crazy, evil, horrible part of Islam.
Yes, I will not practice backwards takfir on these takfiris.
To say that much of their ideology is “unislamic” is a counter-propaganda short-hand for saying that it is bida3 (hateful innovation) and outside of the traditional zones of consensus.
but yes, the short-hand propaganda is not correct. I understand why it is said, naunced propaganda is not very effective mostly.
Agreed. Whether or not ISIS/ISIL/Daesh (can we agree on just one name?) correctly interprets Islamic texts to justify its actions, apparently its members believe they are Islamic, and not only that, but that they are the sole true muslims.
And the Wesboro Baptist Church believe that they are the true Christians as do many sects of Christianity. The overall theme in this play is that you get to justify your reason to act like a brutal selfish asshole by claiming God wants you to act this way.
Does it matter what we label them so long as they consider themselves Islamic? I don’t know, I’m really asking. Sometimes I think it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Depends on the situation I guess
By all means, OP, feel free to provide a comprehensive definition of what a “real” Muslim is.
This is the same stupid argument we have every time a Christian does something awful and immoral and evil and other Christians say, “Oh, they’re not a real Christian”. My grandmother is probably the most obnoxious case of this; in response to Christians doing such awful, unchristian things as making life hard for gay people and directly quoting from the old testament, she refers to them as “not true christians”. I just want to reach through my screen, shake her, and say, “Grandma, you do not get to call someone not a true Christian just because they aren’t as big of a hypocrite as you and actually read their damn holy book (rather than the Cliff’s Notes version I learned as a 6-year-old)”.
ISIS is Islamic. It’s right in the freakin’ name, guys. They are firmly and radically dedicated to a particular strain of violent, backwards-ass Islam, birthed directly from scholars interpreting the Qur’an. Whether their interpretation is accurate or not has no bearing on the matter.
Right, except that “democratic” is a term with a generally-agreed-upon definition, not a vague mish-mash of beliefs to be held to varying degrees of seriousness.
I think that would make them sinners or perhaps just misguided according to my understanding of the religion. They would still be Christians IMHO.
Putting sugar in porridge or not is one thing. Running around beheading everyone is altogether different, and I think that gives us grounds for making some distinctions. I think that and other actions give me the right to Declare: ISIS is formally not Islamic.
Of course I am ready for this line of argument. Look again at the OP. I posted the formula by which it can be discerned that a group is not following the god they claim. It reads like an almost perfect description of ISIS, no? And who is their god? It isn’t YHWH/Allah (same thing), it is “their strength”. I am no Islam expert but I know enough to understand that isn’t what it is about.
Muhammed is not the only Prophet to have walked this Earth. By Habakkuk, ISIS is not Islamic!
I confess you got me there. I can’t do it. However, the Muslims I know are certainly nothing whatsoever like ISIS. They almost all seem to have young children, seem focused and sober, they seem modest to the point of recessive but that could be because I am an infidel interacting with them, no offense. I have never known a criminal Muslim, or even a punk-ass one (though that could be because I don’t travel enough). In college I knew a rather vehement, stern Muslim guy, but to me it appeared fully justified by how disciplined he seemed, how fluent and extensively articulate he was about his beliefs. For all his stern vehemence he was still polite, gracious even, in answering my moronic 20-something questions.
You’d want your kid to turn out like one of these people- polite, sharp, sober. Maybe you wouldn’t want your adult self to turn out like one since they don’t drink or seem to have fun in a variety of ways, even harmless ones, but I recognize the respectability of a not-frivolous life.
The thought that any of these people would strap a bomb to their body and blow themselves up at the goddamn Sbarro is beyond absurdly unthinkable. If their plan is to chop my head off, they will certainly have the element of surprise on their side. I think it is equally likely they will turn into zombies and eat my brain.
But my point isn’t to define “Muslim”. It is to point out that ISIS ain’t it, see my response to Ibn Warraq
Okay, let’s look at it from my personal perspective. ISIS’ run of terroristic acts has tempted me to be critical of Islam generally, or to be angry with it. But this creates a lot of cognitive dissonance. Consider this reply:
Clearly there are two categories here- ISIS and the rest of Islam. If we say ISIS is Islamic, in a sense we shrink things down to one category, and the whole thing becomes a target of ire. That isn’t right and that isn’t fair. So maybe I am simply resolving my own mental conflict by labeling ISIS as not-Islamic, and recommending that other people give it a whirl.
OTOH I am not kidding around here. ISIS is objectively not Islamic. See my response to Ibn Warraq.
If they believe they are Islamic, they are mistaken. See my response to Ibn Warraq.
You are incorrect, sir. ISIS is not Islamic. If you want to pick out individual members and say about them, “at one time they were a Muslim”, I can accept that. Or, “this one is just a victim caught up in the storm,” sure. But overall? Sorry, no.
NO!
All right, noted that all of you, plus Ramira, do not agree with me. If anyone has suggestions re: how to argue with Ramira about Islam :eek:, I’m all ears.
Ahem. Ramira: You know in your heart that ISIS is not Islamic. Listen to your feelings.
Ramira, do you mind telling me your thoughts on the Habukkuk quotes I posted? There really does seem to be a point at which it is obvious that a group is motivated by something other than religious zeal, but find it useful to cloak themselves in religious trappings. I really am thoroughly convinced that this is the case with ISIS, that they are, simply put, not Islamic. They just aren’t.
The Christians I know are nothing like the Klu Klux Klan or the Crusaders. This is completely irrelevant. They held firmly to an extremist position within their religion. They believe in Allah. They hold up Mohammed as their prophet. They actively practice Islam. They are Muslims. The fact that this is distasteful for other Muslims is neither here nor there. The fact that other Muslims are not like them is completely irrelevant as well.
Of course not. Because the most obvious, reasonably broad definition would involve believing in Allah as the one, true god, believing that Mohammed was his prophet, and observing the five pillars. Things ISIS does.
I live near Philadelphia. There are some 200,000 Muslims in Philadelphia. If all of them moved and started their own city, it would become the 117th biggest city in the country, a shade larger than Shreveport, LA.
Philadelphia, like a lot of big cities, has a violent crime rate higher than that of the country as a whole. The rate has gone down but it’s still a lot more dangerous than average to live here.
So, those who are intent to make a big issue out of ISIS being Islamic, I ask: Where are all the attacks here? How come my wife rides the subway and doesn’t worry about being blown up? How come my block of unguarded rowhouses remains standing? How come the city isn’t reduced to rubble from the attacks?
200,000 Muslims. In my city. Yet, no terrorist acts here. How come?
Are the 200,000 Muslims in Philadelphia not really Islamic? Are they apostates for not making jihad at the Rocky Statue and destroying the Liberty Bell and all the other historical artifacts here?
Since you folks quoting from the Koran and pointing fingers seem to know true Islam, why is Philadelphia not a warzone?
