I don't get Buffy the Vampire Slayer, should I give it more time?

Cafe Society
21

The show didn’t start as a dumping ground. Joss decided in S2 that Angel deserved his own show and so that went into development before S3 even started. (Which, in my opinion, explains much of Angel’s characterization in S3). It doesn’t even make sense to create a show that acts as nothing more than a “dumping ground.” Joss moved the characters over that would be successful and would make the show successful (or as successful as a spin-off on the WB could be).

I, too, prefer Angel to BtVS. I really, really hated Angel on BtVS. A part of me still hates Angel on BtVS. In fact, I don’t even watch the first 3 seasons that often because I dislike him so much. And I completely and utterly adore him from the first moment I saw him on Angel. The writers let him develop a brain and a personality on his own show.

Also I think Angel is far more mature in its themes and concepts. It’s like BtVS is a show about becoming an adult and AtS is a show about what happens once you get there.

It’s funny this thread is started today. I broke out the DVDs today and watched a few episodes from S4. Sometimes I forget how much I really enjoyed the series. It’s like a delightful surprise every time I watch an episode and remember.

22

That’s why Season 5 of Angel is my favorite season, not only of the show but of any show ever. It’s all about being forced to move beyond the unbridled idealism of youth, getting your first job in The System as another cog in the machine, and still doing your best to retain your own ideals and values as you earn a living, without totally succumbing to corporate/grownup culture and turning into the people you distrusted and despised when you were young.

23

pepperlandgirl, I think we’re in pretty much complete agreement. True, Angel wasn’t actually a dumping ground, but it could definitely be looked at as such by someone who has only watched Buffy. Really, Cordy wasn’t a particularly deep character in Buffy (though she did have her moments in season 3) and as I understand it Wesley was rather unpopular with fans during his season 3 stint. The fact that they went on to become such great characters was a bit surprising. I liked those characters before they made the switch, but I could easily see how telling a Buffy fan “no, it really is a good show! It’s got Cordelia and Wesley as core cast members!” would fail to persuade.

Really, though, I could talk about the character development of the Angel cast all day long. I suppose it’s getting a bit off topic for a Buffy thread, though.

24

Those characters worked on Angel in large part because they were the center of the show, not others. Give the characters attention and a chance to grow, and they will/did. The more adult nature of the storyline didn’t hurt, either. It also applied to the guest stars on each series. Faith, for example was bad on Buffy, but she was bad on Angel. Her redemption never could have happened on the former show. Of course, redemption was what Angel was all about.

My all-time favorite exchange was between Angel and Holland Manners in Season 2’s “Reprise”:

[Angel enters the elevator]
Holland: Well, this is exciting, isn’t it? Going straight to the source. So what’s the big plan, Angel? Destroy the Senior Partners, smash Wolfram & Hart once and for all?
Angel: Something like that.
Holland: Hmm, now tell me just what do you think that would accomplish? In the end, I mean.
Angel: It’ll be–the end.
Holland: Well, the end of you, certainly. But I meant in the larger sense.
Angel: In the larger sense, I really don’t give a crap.
Holland: Now, I don’t think that’s true. Be honest–you got the tiniest bit of “give a crap” left. Otherwise you wouldn’t be going on this kamikaze mission. Now let me see, there was something in a sacred prophecy, some oblique reference to you. Something you’re supposed to prevent. Now what was that?
Angel: The apocalypse.
Holland: Yes, the apocalypse, of course. Another one of those. Well, it’s true, we do have one scheduled. And I imagine if you were to prevent it you would save a great many people. Well, you should do that then. Absolutely! I wasn’t thinking. [smiles] Of course, all those people you save from that apocalypse would then have the next one to look forward to, but hey, it’s always something, isn’t it?
Angel: You’re not gonna win.
Holland: Well…no. Of course we aren’t. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as “winning”. [laughs]
Angel: Then why?
Holland: Hmm? I’m sorry, why what?
Angel: Why fight?
Holland: That’s really the question you should be asking yourself, isn’t it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn’t enter into it. We…go on, no matter what. Our firm has always been here…in one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we’re in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And that, friend, is what’s making things so difficult for you. See, the world doesn’t work in spite of evil, Angel. It works with us. It works because of us.
[elevator comes to a stop and the doors open, revealing Los Angeles]
Holland: Welcome to the home office.
Angel: This isn’t…
Holland: Oh, you know it is. You know that better than anyone. Things you’ve seen. Things you’ve–well, done. You see, if there wasn’t evil in every single one of them out there–why, they wouldn’t be people. They’d all be angels.
[Angel slowly walks out of the elevator]
Holland: Have a nice day.
Oh, Septima, you have so much good stuff to look forward to. You have no idea. :smiley:

25

Ok, I watched The Witch just now, and I already like it better (“Fertility statue. You don’t need to see that.” :smiley: ) Still think Buffy has a few screws loose, but they made more sense this time, and the character seemed less demented, more normal sixteen-year-old-ish. And Cordelia seems to have aquired some (very relative) brains. All good.

26

Bear down for the next episode. It’s the worst of the first five seasons, IMO. After that, things get better again.

27

Aww you’re hooked now. There’s no going back. :slight_smile: And once you’re finished watching, there’s always fanfic. :smiley:

*** Ponder

28

I don’t get it either, so I’m of no help. Of course, I don’t get anything Whedonesque.

29

I wondered the same thing, Septima, after watching the first four episodes. I was really confused watching the first two and more entertained but still unconvinced after the next two. The Dopers convinced me to finish the season before calling it quits. By the time I did, I was a fan for life. I’ve now seen all seven seasons three times. And yes, the first two episodes are still painful to watch.

30

Septima, am I right in thinking English is your second language? You write it pretty well (better than a lot of Americans who speak no other language). But the dialogue on “Buffy” is idiomatic American English with a lot of slang and some fairly subtle nuances; so there might be a bit of a language barrier.

Otherwise, let me reiterate that, yeah, there’s a lot of silliness, but also some really great stuff. My main complaint about the show was how they got in the habit of being clever in stupid ways. And, no, it’s not realistic high school dialogue as spoken by 16-year-old schoolgirls; it’s clever dialogue written by an adult and spoken by actors in their 20’s. Just one of the things you have to accept with television. (There’s also the millennia-old tradition of writing dialogue that’s more interesting than typical everyday conversation; apparently a lot of people like that.)

31

Well then you’re all set, because personally that’s one of my least favorite episodes: I skip it when going back over the show.

32

I don’t like Buffy either. I know I ought to, because it was aimed squarely at my demographic, but it never hooked me in at all no matter how hard I tried. I’ve semi-watched episodes throughout the whole series, hoping I’d finally “get it” and fall under its spell, but it’s never happened. I find myself strangely distanced from it, not engrossed or enchanted at all.

I also am not a big fan of Firefly. It’s okay, and I would’ve watched it if it had kept going, but I’ve only watched the series once. That’s enough for me.

I don’t think Joss Whedon and I are on the same wavelength.

33

Yes, I’m not a native english speaker, and thanks for the compliment. However…

There is no need to take things personally, nor to write subtly-veiled insults to my intelligence. You have a problem with me, you can say it.

I do not mind the general dialogue: I mind that one particular cliché, the brainless (often female) teenager. Cordelia is a perfect and particularly obnoxious example in the first two episodes; somewhat better in the third. In general, brainless characters bugg me; when done well, they can be funny (I actually liked Clueless), but when done poorly, as is mostly the case, they ruin every scene they open their mouth in.

34

Cordelia starts that way, but the character develops out of that cliché rather quickly (though perhaps not in season one, it’s been a while since I’ve watched it). She stays bitchy and everything, but there are layers.

35

That’s just about how I felt about both Firefly and Buffy. Of course I didn’t watch either until they were on DVD and while I enjoyed them I don’t really care to watch them ever again. Then again I’m like that about most shows.

Marc

36

I thought the movie, with Kristy Swanson and Donald Sutherland, was very good. The TV series never made any impression on me at all.

37

I really liked the original movie too, and hoped the show would capture the same silliness but it ended up too… I dunno, teen-angsty.

Honestly, it was an okay show. I watched it when I could, but I never could schedule my time for it. I had a friend Buffy-fanatic, who’d occasionally just tell me what was going on during the 10 or 12 episodes I missed.

38

Again, there might be a language problem here. If I ever insult you, you’ll know about it, but that’s not likely to happen. So, there’s no problem between us. Your intelligence seems fine to me; don’t mistake the give-and-take and mild sarcasm of a typically lively Cafe Society discussion for insult.

Good point about Xander’s best friend. Good old what’s-his-name. Very traumatic. Never mentioned again. Overall, though, the show was pretty good about continuity, and sometimes a revelation would cast new light on details from previous episodes. (Although they relied a bit too much on the practice of simply keeping things from the audience, so that they’d be a big surprise later.)

And honestly, all the characters get more interesting over time, and the actors also matured during the show.

ETA: I think it helped that I never saw the show when it was originally aired, but watched it later on DVD. If you watch a whole season in the space of a couple of weeks, the overall story arc is probably more clear.

39

Oh, you’re human? (Hint: the fact that you think it was only for a particular demographic might be part of why it doesn’t work for you.)

Hmm. “No matter how hard I tried” and “semi-watched” are mutually exclusive concepts. Another clue perhaps.

–Not that I insist everyone *should *“get it,” but if you want to be *sure *not to get it, watch it with a preconceived notion of its demographic, and then only “semi” watch it. I can guarantee it won’t hook you.

40

It occurs to me, though, that for the whole show, Xander did have a special dislike for vampires in general, and never trusted either Angel or Spike. (Can’t really blame him.)