And where did the Constitution come into this? It’s not mentioned in the OP. I think that most people value freedom of speech even when it isn’t required by the First Amendment. That’s the issue at hand here.
quote:
Originally posted by Valgard
Sam, I don’t see a double standard here, I see two different situations.
Razorsharp: Here, let me clear up the double standard for you.
Razorsharp, I was addressing the difference between members of the public voicing their disapproval of somebody versus the White House telling people to watch what they say. Those are two seperate issues.
On some of the specific issues raised:
Rockler: Dumbass who insulted lots of people. My opinion pretty matches that of many of my friends, both liberal and conservative, baseball fans and otherwise. That’s about where we ended. Most people I talked to about that one seemed to have about the same reaction, “What a jerk” and then get on with their lives. Should he be fired? No, but I betcha his manager had a wee little talk with him about public relations. If his behavior impacts the business then yeah, he’d probably get punished.
Thomas: First I’ve heard that statement and without knowing the situation I’ll say it sounds pretty dumb. If Byrd had average stats and was getting praise heaped upon him versus what a black player would have gotten then maybe he’d have a point.
Shaq: Let’s be honest, nobody thinks O’Neal is a brain trust. If he said that white people can’t dunk then he’s an idiot. If he meant (as Dewey said) that his own friends would clown him if a white guy dunked on him, then that speaks volumes about Shaq’s friends. Most of whom I will guess are NOT in the NBA.
Carter: Sounds like he was talking trash. If a white guy said “Get this black fool off me or I’m gonna score 40” then he’d be doing the exact same thing and I don’t think he’d be singled out for it. I’ll go out on a limb and guess that this happens more than once or twice a season in pro sports.
Baker: Geeze, to be honest I’ll say there’s a tiny kernel of truth in that one, there’s an actual biological reason behind extra melatonin - less sunburn if nothing else. I’d also agree that overall Norwegians are better able to handle the cold than Africans, so what? The swimming example is different and my first reaction to a coach who said that white people are automatically better swimmers than black people would be that he’s blowing smoke out of his butt, like if he said that redheads make better swimmers than brunettes.
Reggie White: Wasn’t he the football player who’s also a minister who made that infamous speech to a state legislature? My memory is that he got a heaping helping of grief over that talk, nobody gave him a pass on it.
So what we’ve got is people being idiots and/or talking smack. They’re all adults, they know exactly what they are saying and not one of them should be surprised that they ticked somebody off. If you anger enough of the people who pay your salary then you may find yourself out of work - the Dixie Chicks lose album sales, Rush finds himself unwelcome at ESPN. Note also that Rush is the richest radio personality around in part BECAUSE he says things that piss off millions of people - he’s actually rewarded for his ideas in some settings, and not in others.
Jodi:
What I am saying is that one should be mature enough to respect someone’s opinion without knee jerk reactions and wants of revenge. Why can’t one just accept differing opinions?
As for speech that can harm you personally, there are slander laws.
No one was hurt by the sayings from Moore or Sarandon, yet many wanted them harmed for their opinions. If anyone was hurt by what they said, they would be in court, but to my knowledge, no one has sued them.
Rush makes a living by taking people to task for the same kind of statements that he made. Now that he’s on the other side, he acts like he’s surprised that such a thing could happen to HIM. I find this case of poetic justice extremely amusing.
‘The disease of “Political Correctness” that is infecting American society, is nothing less than institutionalized “thought control” designed specifically to be applied to conservative Americans, who still embrace the traditional American values of individualism, freedom and liberty. Its purpose is to silence their protests of the socialization and globalization of the last genuinely free country that remains in the world today.’
AMEN - Well said!
**Reggie White: Wasn’t he the football player who’s also a minister who made that infamous speech to a state legislature? My memory is that he got a heaping helping of grief over that talk, nobody gave him a pass on it.
**
Even minorities usually get grief, I won’t deny that.
But “getting grief” is a lot different from losing your job, or even worse, having a stigma attached to you forever because you blurted something inappropriate.
You just don’t get it, do you? The idea of free speech is that it creates, in Mill’s terms IIRC, a “marketplace of ideas.” Free speech does not mean that all opinions are equally valid or equally valuable. The idea is that people should be free from government restraints to express themselves, and that other people are free to agree or disagree as they see fit. Susan Sarandon can say whatever she would like to say, and if I disagree with her, I can choose not to support her movies. Her speech doesn’t have to be political. She could be on E! saying how great her new movie is, and if I disagree with her assessment I don’t have to go see it. Why is it that this concept, it seems to me more than any other, is so misunderstood on this board?!?
I think you mean melanin, not melatonin. They’re two different things that happen to sound similar. Melanin is a skin pigment, melatonin is a hormone released in the brain which regulates sleep among other things. Sorry to nitpick, but we are trying to fight ignorance here and confusion between the two seems to have contributed to some pretty whacky racial theories in which the two words seem to be used interchangably. Sorry for the hijack.
Yes, but do you not see (or is it that you refuse to see) that those who get condemned and punished, and those who are excused for expressing certain thoughts that political correctness has deemed taboo, is divided along the lines of race?
No, but they sure have figured out a way to keep people from expressing certain thoughts, haven’t they?
I don’t know what the heck you are talking about, and frankly, I don’t believe anyone else does either. Please, reveal to all of us where I insinuated that I don’t want anyone to criticize my language, but I wish to be free to criticize other’s.
Is the constructing of a falsehood the best that you can do in obvious defense of “political correctness”?
addendum:…that those who get condemned and punished, and those who are excused for expressing certain thoughts that political correctness has deemed taboo, is divided along the lines of race **and politics **?
The “Thought Police” seem to be much more vigilant in the prosecution of conservatives.
MRTUFFPAWS –
But what if you don’t respect their opinion? How is it immature to say so? Why is choosing to say so automatically a “knee-jerk reaction,” as opposed to a well-thought-out reaction?
Not every opinion is worthy of respect or acceptance. Some should be rejected out of hand, and in the strongest of terms.
Personally, I think Michael Moore is a grandstanding, ambushing, oversimplistic gloryhound. Others may disagree with me – many do – but that doesn’t change the fact that I has as much right to my opinions as he has to his, and as much right to air them, and he is not entitled to some extra measure of respect just because he happens to be famous.
He, like everyone else, must be prepared to deal with the fall-out of unpopular speech. (And, to be fair, he does appear to be more or less prepared for that.) But the free marketplace of ideas doesn’t work if only one side gets to talk, and then insist that the other side has to be silent, because the other side’s reactions and opinions are meanspirited or scary.
Speaking up means taking the risk that someone else will also speak up to say that you are full of shit. That’s what free speech means: Everybody gets to do it.
Wow, now I understand why the New York Post was the leader in manufacturing outrage over Rocker’s comments (followed closely by the Daily News, although neither was as vituperative as that bastion of P.C. liberalness and groupthink, New York sports talk radio). Dubbing him the “Ku Klux Kloser”, putting him on the back cover several times as “New York Public Enemy #1” not only when the statement originally appreared in Sports Illustrated, but resurrecting it months later when the Braves made their first trip to Shea. It’s clear now that the Post is a nefarious liberal institution with the objective to promote political correctness. Perhaps someone should inform Rupert Murdoch of the situation, as I’m sure he would not want such liberals working at his newspaper.
The lesson to learn from the Rocker incident is that if you are going to criticize a city and its (minority, immigrant, and gay) inhabitants, don’t involve a city with a massive media presence and three sports-crazy tabloid newspapers that thrive on controversy. If Rocker had been talking about the cultural climate of, say, Milwaukee, we might never had heard about it.
Have you ever actually listened to Rush Limbaugh, or do you just believe this by word of mouth? He’s a political commentator, not the devil. I’d like a cite where you’ve personally heard him be mean-spirited please.
Ring any bells?
I think in the United States it is possible to be called “racist” for making any comment referring to race at all. Or, just use “niggardly” correctly in a sentence.
Rush probably quit before he could be fired for the pill thing.
But, the double standard is razorsharp. Personally, I think everyone from Maher, White, Barkley, Limbaugh, Thomas, way back to Al Campanis should be able to mouth off without losing their jobs. That includes even Dusty Baker.
Occasionally there are members of this board that make statements that are deemed “unacceptable”. If they keep making such remarks they are then “banned”. I think everyone here understands this and I therefore wonder what is so hard about understanding that what happened to Rush and the Dixie Chicks wasn’t a matter of denying their right of speech. 
This is why I stay away from the Great Debates and stick to General Questions 
Ok, there’s one example. But I’ve never personally heard him say anything mean-spirited like that, and I’ve listened a few hours a week for the past 7 years.
I agree with you there Adaher, however Reggie didn’t just accidentally blurt something out. He made a big speech, dragged a whole bunch of stupid stereotypes out of the can, and then continued to defend his comments afterwards when people were calling him on it - obviously he holds those opinions pretty firmly.
Davidm - Thank you, yes that is correct on melanin vs. melatonin. Given how this week has been it’s like I didn’t say “melamine” 
Razorsharp:
“Yes, but do you not see (or is it that you refuse to see) that those who get condemned and punished, and those who are excused for expressing certain thoughts that political correctness has deemed taboo, is divided along the lines of race?”
No I don’t see that. I do think that somebody who makes a dumb remark in the “heat of the moment” can make amends, whereas somebody who makes it clear that they are predjudiced, and then continues to defend those feelings, may get a whole lot of heat. Look at Khalid Muhammad, or Louis Farrakhan, rightly reviled as a couple of vicious bigots. In many cases people who make racist comments (about ANY race) don’t get very far in life (and thus become celebrities or whatever) BECAUSE people know they are bigots - if you make it clear in this country that white people suck, you’re going to have a hard time getting anywhere because you have to deal with white folks. So you either stay at the low end, or you work someplace where those attitudes are tolerated (which will probably keep you at the low end anyhow), or you grow up and change your attitudes.
Is race a hot-button issue? Sure it is. Are we (as a society) probably a little more conscious of perceived slights against minorities? Well yeah, I imagine so, this country has a history of problems with racism against minority groups and it’s only in the last couple of decades that we’ve made some big strides forward. But that doesn’t mean that anybody is getting a free ride when they say something offensive - bring it to peoples attention and we all apply our BS detector.
“…LUCKY I didn’t say melamine”. Lucky, not LIKE. Duh.
And the week continues in the same vein…
No, you are refusing to see that. I presented to you several statements by minorities that went without consequences, whereas statements with the same racial content spoken by a white, would have brought out the wrath of the thought police and consequences would have been demended to be paid.
If you are trying to say that minorities are held to the same PC standard as whites, you just pegged the needle on my BS dector.