"I don't like stuff that's not real."

Cafe Society
41

That’s pretty much exactly the opposite of the reason I primarily read fiction. Truth is stranger than fiction and fiction is my refuge from the weirdness.

In regards to the ExTank’s niece, I once read an article about creative writing and the author was going on about how difficult it is to keep an audience throughout a long series. The series starts to build up its own continuity and rules and then writers begin to be more and more constrained in how they can use the universe. Once they start breaking some continuity, they get all kinds of hell from the fans. You see this in the comic book universes all the time. “Superman couldn’t possibly lose to that [weenie of the week] he totally trashed [other weenie of the week] who was WAY more powerful!” “Spider-Man doesn’t have organic webshooters/make deals with the devil/live in suspended animation at the bottom of a mineshaft for thirty years!” It’s part of the reason comic books “reboot” themselves periodically.

Anyway, this creative writer had an interesting take on it, he said “You get one.” Meaning you get ONE exception to the rules of the universe. When you introduce your character you can say things like “he can fly, he’s faster than a speeding bullet, he’s invulnerable, and he’s super strong.” Equally important in that is what you didn’t say. As an author, you’ve left the reader with the unspoken assumption that everything else is as according to the natural and normal flow of life and time. Every time you want to break that contract you’re asking the reader to re-suspend disbelief, and that’s not easy to do on a continual basis.

Shows like “Firefly” and “Battlestar Galactica” may be too close to reality in most circumstances for people to forgive them their deviations when they occur. A person may be able to visualize a world of the Federation, where EVERYTHING is alien to them, and thus they can accept lots of things being different from their understanding. Worlds much closer to our own, however, are harder to suspend disbelief for. A phaser is an unfamiliar item, thus we’ll believe nearly anything they want to tell us about it. A gun, however, is part of our reality and the familiar is more difficult to rationalize with the rest of the fiction.

Enjoy,
Steven

42

I suppose. I would never say “I don’t like that song” about a song I had not heard. I might say “I don’t think I would like it, based on your description.” But to flat out state that she doesn’t like something she has never seen seems weird to me.

43

You beat me to it, including the Uncanny Valley reference. I have a friend who has tried, unsuccessfully, to get into BSG, because all the rest of us are hardcore fans. He enjoys things that are either much more heavily escapist (recent favorite movie: Sky High) or straight real-world comedies or dramas. BSG isn’t escapist enough; it’s uncomfortably close to reality. And that makes the fantasy fictions stick out. He finds the whole thing distracting and strange, and despite an honest effort, has chosen to reject the show. His choice, and I don’t hold it against him, now that he’s quit rolling his eyes at the rest of us. :wink:

44

Thanks all for ther replies, and my apologies for not getting back sooner.

Reading all the replies and thinking it over, I think it boils down to a couple of things:

  1. Her “tastes” are “set.” ST:TNG, ST:DS9, Buffy and Stargate (she doesn’t like any Stargate after RDA left as a regular) were pretty much her “staple shows” when she was a bit younger, footloose and fancy-free.

  2. BSG and Firefly are a little too dark for her. :shrug: I’ve heard there’s some stuff on Buffy that was kinda intense, and DS9 had it’s moments, too.

  3. While I haven’t “badgered” her to check these shows out, I think her husband may have, and I think, without getting too deep into family details, that they are reaching that point in their marriage where if one says “white” the other will say “black,” just because.

45

It could just be an evolution of taste. There are certain books, stories, and songs that I definitely wouldn’t like if I encountered them for the first time today, but I remember them fondly from when I was a kid.

Maybe she used to like “fake” stuff and doesn’t anymore, but she’s still attached to the old shows.

I don’t understand. Are you using “the shit” as a positive thing, or is this sentence self-contradictory?

46

I wanted to echo the above. The OP’s niece isn’t interested in Firefly or Battlestar Galactica. That’s her right. She doesn’t have to “explain exactly what she means by that” and it was rude to try to force her to defend her personal preferences. She can watch, or not watch, whatever she wants and it’s really not any of ExTank’s business.

I note that several posters in this thread have referred to the niece as being a teenager, calling her a “kid”, saying she’s going through a “phase”, etc. Take a look at the OP again – this niece is a grown woman, married, has a career, and is a Ph.D. candidate. I doubt she’s refusing to watch Firefly out of fear that the other cheerleaders will think she’s a dork.

47

Oh, boy, are you a codger. :smiley: “X is the shit” has been an expression of praise since at least the early 1990s.

I don’t think a single poster has suggested that she doesn’t have a right to have an opinion.

Im sorry, but the essence of human interaction regarding art is exchange of ideas, disagreement, argument, etc. If you don’t want to have your opinions and tastes challenged, then you have no business expressing them in the company of other people.

She made it his business as soon as she expressed an opinion. Opinions aren’t some kind of holy object that should be revered and unsullied.

48

It seems perfectly reasonable and intelligent to me, and a number of posters have already said as much. To me, it’s weird that you believe that someone is unable to determine from information about something whether or not they’ll like it. I could give tons of examples, if you want. I’ve never eaten sand, but I know I wouldn’t like it. I’ve never been confined in a coffin for two days, but I know I wouldn’t like it. I’ve never lived as a homeless person, but I know I wouldn’t like it.

There are some things where you simply have enough information to know the outcome without having to try it. I know that if I shoot myself in the head, I’ll die. “How do you know, you’ve never tried it?” is an extremely bizarre response to that. Why is taste any different? Why do people have this odd notion that somehow taste doesn’t conform to the usual rules of information and knowledge?

I’ve never seen the DiCaprio “Titanic” movie, but I know enough about it and I know enough about my own tastes to be absolutely sure, beyond any possible (not reasonable, but possible) doubt that I would hate it.

Have you ever started watching a TV series, not liked it, and so stopped watching it? Gosh, that’s just weird. You haven’t seen the next episode, so how do you know you wouldn’t like it? The answer is that you’ve seen the earlier episodes, so you have some information about what the next episode will be like. Having that information allows you to reach the reasonable conclusion that you won’t like the next episode.

There’s no significant difference between that and my knowing that I won’t like “Titanic”, nor Astroboy14’s knowing that he wouldn’t like Mariah Carey, nor ExTank’s niece knowing that she wouldn’t like “Firefly”.

49

I can sympathize with the OP’s niece. People think I should read Harry Potter and I tell them I hate fantasy and stories about magic. Of course, I love Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. What I’m really saying is, “I hate poorly written YA novels about people I don’t care about doing things that don’t matter except with not-so-clever whimsical names attached.” But generally, the people pressuring me to read the series are fans of said series, and I don’t want to be a jerk. When I’m told I should read Twilight, I inform the person I hate vampires. Except, I love BtVS and Angel, one of my favorite novels is Dracula, I’ve done academic work on vampires in literature and television, and I have written a book with vampires in it. Maybe what I really mean is “I hate poorly written YA novels about pussy vampires and their stupid girlfriends.” But again, you can’t say that to fans.

And really, BtVS and AtS are exceptions, rather than rules. In general, I don’t like fantasy, I don’t like magic, I don’t like vampires. I don’t seek out literature or television or movies with these elements. I only read Dracula because I had to, and I came to BtVS and AtS kicking and screaming. The characters, the writing, the depth, the symbolism, the emotions, all grabbed me and held on. It had nothing to do with the genre, in the end.

50

I don’t see how you can make any judgment about her consistency. She simply has a different idea in her head about “real” than you do, that doesn’t make her inconsistent in her own tastes.

I pretty much agree with her, and I think her explanation makes sense. Other posters have already pointed this out, but to me something like “Star Trek” is “real” in the sense that I can imagine it more-or-less happening someday in the future. But “Firefly” is the height of “unreal” because no matter how hard I try or how hard I twist up my brain or what totally bizarre future course for humanity I try to imagine, there’s just no way I can even begin to conceive of that universe ever actually happening. I’m being completely consistent, I just may have a different way of looking at things or a different set of criteria than you do.

Just because there are two things that you like, and that according to your criteria are very similar, doesn’t make someone else inconsistent because they like one but not the other.

51

I hardly forced her to defend her position. The whole “head asplodey” thing in the OP was hyperbole added for (what I apparently incorrectly thought) humorous effect.

She made a statement, expressing her opinion. I asked politely for clarification. You know, the way you ask when someone you like or love says something you didn’t quite catch, or didn’t understand, and you want them to repeat what they said, or expand upon it a bit. Where I got stumped was over a seemingly extraordinarily contradictory statement of taste.

I mean, it’s all well and good to say, “I like vegetables, but can’t stand cauliflower.” That’s an expression of taste that’s easy to understand. But if someone says, “I like vegetables, but don’t like carrots because they’re not vegetables,” there’s a serious WTF moment.

Bad analogy, I know. Most are.

But for someone who loves sci-fi and fantasy in a lot of varying forms, the statement that Firefly and BSG aren’t real compared to ST:TNG, ST:DS9, ST: Voyager, Enterprise, Stargate, Buffy, Angel, (and now Sanctuary, too), is perplexing.

And like adults who grew up together (I’m only 8 years older than my niece due to age difference between myself and my sister, and my niece is actually more like my little sister) we can ask questions and have conversations without browbeating, screaming, throwing stuff, or shooting each other. We aren’t the people you see on COPS. This particular discussion we let drop because she seemed unable to express her thoughts, and it seemed also to be uncomfortable ground that she and her husband had covered before. I respect that, and backed off.

So maybe you just want to rethink your position about me, my family, and the discussions we have with each other, and not leap to unwarranted conclusions based upon evidence notable for its absence.

To everyone else: thanks much for your thoughts and perspectives. The more I think about it, the more I’m thinking that the primary reason she doesn’t like Firefly or BSG is bacause her husband does. Yeah, it’s a marriage that appears to be headed in that direction. But I’ll also allow that her tastes may have become “set,” or perhaps those two shows may be in that “Uncanny Valley.”

52

Well, she didn’t say she **would **not like it. She said she *does *not like it. About something she has never seen. For the reason that it is not real. But she likes other stuff that is not real. So yeah, it seems weird to me.

As for your examples, they really do not apply. Eating sand? Buried alive? How in the world does that compare to matters of taste in entertainment?

53

I have to cut her some slack because, while I have a very good ability to suspend disbelief (i.e. I will accept almost anything and run with it)…

…people have learned to NOT watch any movie with time travel in it with me. I just can not get around the logic paradoxes involved. So, I imagine I have had conversations with people leaving shaking their heads as the OP has had with his niece.

54

Your OP indicates that you pursued the subject much longer than I would consider polite, and attempted to convince her that she was wrong about her own opinions – that since she’s okay with vampires in fiction she’s some kind of hypocrite for dismissing Firelfy. I know I hate it when people try to tell me I don’t know what my own preferences are.

Since you brought up food, I don’t eat red meat, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people who have no reason to care about my diet try to convince me that this means I must eat pork. “No, I don’t eat pork,” I say. “But pork is THE OTHER WHITE MEAT!” is the inevitable reply. Like after more than 15 years of not eating pork I’m going to slap my forehead and say “Oh, silly me, all this time I’ve been wrong about what I want to eat! Bring me a ham sandwich at once!”

*So what? Why are you so hung up on her preferences being (to you) irrational? People like what they like, there’s not necessarily any coherent logic behind it.

*Gosh, maybe she’s sick of being pestered to watch TV shows she isn’t interested in. She was probably unwilling, not unable, to express her thoughts because she was trying to be nice about it.

*Or maybe, just maybe, she genuinely isn’t interested in watching either of those shows.

55

And you’re not my niece, with whom I’ve had a lifetime’s worth of relationship, and know when to drop stuff.

You seem to be the sort of internet tool that likes to pick a fight based upon scanty information and your own preferences, prejudices, and preconceived notions, which may (or may not) have any bearing upon the subject matter.

Again, “assumption in the absence of evidence,” coupled with “How To Have Adult Conversations With Family Members” went right over your head. I attempted to convince her, a highly intelligent and highly educated Doctoral candidate, to elaborate on a seemingly contradictory statement; not to defend it, as that implies an adversarial conversation, which it wasn’t.

Good for you.

I couldn’t give a flying fuck what you eat. I brought up food only as it was relevant to the analogy I was making. Which is another concept you appear to be weak in. I just as easily could’ve used cars in my analogy, or computers, or anything else which came to mind. Since I was munching on carrots and celery at the time, they came to mind first.

Once more, with feeling: grown-up people can sit around and have conversations (like, you know, myself and 99% of the other thoughtful respondents in this thread, specifically not counting you) wherein statements can be made, and polite questions to one another to clarify/amplify/expand upon statements and opinions can be made, and people who like or love one another can have an enjoyable time.

Unlike your contributions to this thread, which have pretty much sucked the fucking life out of anything I have taken from it.

I know my own family (and they know me) well enought to know how to get someone to drop a subject we don’t feel like talking about without being major assholes about it. Unlike you.

And she’s more than capable (and willing) of saying that, too.

Now, kindly drop the subject.

Mods: feel free to close this any time you like. As far as I’m concerned with my own OP: question asked, and answered.

56

ExTank, I’m closing the thread at your request, but your post to Lamia is over the line. Personal insults aren’t allowed in this forum.