I don't think people around here realize what the South is really like

The BBQ Pit
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Not only is Missouri not in the Deep South, it is a Midwestern state. Arkansas, west of the Mississippi, is Southern but not Deep South.

In Louisiana, racial and ethnic differences seem to be celebrated – especially Creole and Cajun cultures. But my experiences there are limited mostly to visits with Cajun friends.

Atlanta has elected at least one Black mayor, but I’m probably way behind. The one I’m thinking of is Andrew Young, who later became American Ambassador to the United Nations. It’s just not the bastion of white society that some picture.

Mississippi State’s new football coach is Black – the first in the SEC. It’s about time!!!

I don’t hear anyone in this thread excusing Southern racism.

The OP claims that we are a land of burning crosses. In sixty years I have never seen even one. Even with twenty years of teaching mostly Black students and eighteen years living in a multi-cultural neighborhood, I have never known of any of our students or neighbors who have experienced burning crosses. When there is a cross burning once every few years, it is rare enough to make the news. (This county has a population of about 700,000 probably – or possibly a million.)

There have been periods of Black church burnings. These are the result of pockets of both individual and organized racism. They are not the work of the average or typical Southerner.

Cousin-fucking? Anyone have a cite for this? In small towns such as the one I grew up in, it was not uncommon to date someone and then find out that your great-great grandmothers were sisters. But that was back when the GI generation and the generations before that tended to stay fairly close to the areas where they were born.

There were no laws against marrying second cousins a hundred years ago. I don’t know what the laws are now. People get out a little more now. :rolleyes:

Neither is “yadda, yadda, yadda.” Neither is fabricating stories (not you – someone else) and allowing stereotypes to go unchallenged. Neither is saying that discussions of racisim should exclusively be about the South. That is just as bigoted as racial slurs and Steppen Fetchet images.

A “fruitful basis” requires honesty all the way around.

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Fayetteville

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I will confess to not having read the entire thread, but wanted to add my support to the OP. I am from the North but attended a private college in the south. The OP describes much of my experience, and the views of many of my southern classmates, fairly well. I even have relatives from Jackson, and we are no longer on speaking terms with them, mostly because my family was not ‘religious’ enough for them. (long story) They are also racists of the worst sort, but of course we in the North don’t understand because we don’t have “those” people living in our neighborhoods.

Of the southerners I knew in school, I’d say the people from Mississippi and Alabama were probably the most backward, people from Atlanta are more or less Northerners who drink sweet tea.

Just my experience based on 4 years as a college student in the South.

R.R. - former ‘carpet bagger’ who left, y’all can keep it, ya hear?

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Whew, thank God I didn’t intend to start a whole new discussion about anything. I considered some way to sum up three pages of posts, then picked the one that would let me vacuum the living room sooner.

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I’ve lived in Alabama all my life, and I would be hard-pressed to think of any (native Alabamian) racists. My friend’s mom might count, except that she was born and raised in the north. I’ve never even heard the n-word used except in class discussions, in which we gingerly refer to it by initial and try not to step on anybody’s toes. The only time I heard it outside of class was when my mom was having a discussion with another parent about profanity, and she said that the only word she would never allow us to say was the n-word. I was somewhere between eight and ten at the time, and I was mystified because I had never heard it before.

On the other hand, I’ve lived a pretty sheltered life. Our public school system is primarily white (90% or more, I would guess), and, though the school has 2,000 people, I have classes with the same twenty people all day (I’m in the IB program). My experiences are probably atypical, but it shows that the south cannot be generalized so easily.

I do want to note something that might seem to undermine my prior assertions. Most of the black students at my school sit together at lunch and during pep rallies, completely of their own accord. Our school newspaper even ran an article on it a few weeks back. It looks disconcerting, like segregation is back and in full force, though this time self-imposed. This might be because of racist attitudes from other students, but, IMHO, I think it’s more of a general unease between groups. Is this how it is with primarily white schools in the north?

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I ran across this in some of my reading and can’t help but wonder what is behind the situations in the Midwest if not racism. The author, a Wisconsin native, seems to think so:
http://eatthestate.org/07-08/NastyRWord.htm

My travels in the North have been mostly in Maine. In three trips I have seen three Blacks. I saw no Blacks while travelling through Vermont, New Hampshire or the Adirondacks.

In Maryland and D.C. I did notice that the whites on the Metro tended to be better dressed and more likely to carry briefcases than Blacks. Any suggestions on why?

127

Damn! Foiled again! And apparently by the next Erma Bombeck. :slight_smile:

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It is your lucky night, because you have a Mississippian in the house.

I was educated in Mississippi from grade school to the end of my college degree.

Being 7th generation Mississippian and 12th generation American I think I am qualified to give my opinion on the subject matter that you have chosen to address Mil.

After graduating from Mississippi State I moved to NYC in the late 80’s and lived there until 2002. I have been fortunate enough to see, learn and experienced a great deal from all over but I will always consider myself a Mississippian first. It does not matter where I go I will always be an American.

That brings me to the old saying that really is not unique to any one region. “I can insult my mother but by god you better not”!

I am going to address your ill thought out rant concerning “racism, religious intolerance and then I am going to address the “War Between The States” (there is a reason why Southerners do not refer to it as the “Civil War”).

Mississippi during the period often referred to as the “second reconstruction” has some very dark years. They were visible to the nation and the behavior of some gave a great lady, a very black eye.

There were just to many high profile moments in this state’s history for people not to make the association Mississippi = Racial Intolerance just to name one of the top ten that comes to mind. Regardless of how unpleasant history might be perceived you cannot change it. Everyone has to make a collective decision to change so that they are not condemned to repeat it. I am a firm believer in a great knowledge of history.

There are some people who will always make asses out of themselves and reflect badly on those around them. I have seen it from Mississippi to Moscow.

Does Mississippi have its fair share of idiots? Oh hell yes! Do some of them need to be hung up by their buster browns? You bet your sweet ass!

Has Mississippi cornered the market on ass holes, son of a bitches, bigots, crooks, uneducated idiots, narrow minded religious radicals that are usually grade A hypocrites? I don’t fucking think so….

It is unfortunate for anyone to be subjected to such ignorance as you described, much less by those that have such an important roll as education. I think you could point to any place on the map and the same thing could be found regardless if it was North or South, the US or Europe, Mexican or Asian, Black or White, Landlocked or Coastal it would just have a different personality about it.

What pisses me off about someone like yourself (a non-native), coming in and slinging insults is, at the end of the day you are a guest no matter how you look at it. Not only are you a guest but you are a guest that moved in and took a job that someone who has lived here all their life was probably more than qualified to do and would produce just as fine a result. So Mississippi’s money is ok but so many of her people are just not up to snuff for you… Boy you sure can paint yourself into a corner…

There is nothing wrong with being offended by some and I would be worried if you liked everything about Jackson and Mississippi. Hell I have people that piss me off here on a daily basis down here but you see I can rant about it until the cows come home because it is my family.

Regardless of what your generalization of Mississippi is, she has made a great progress after being brought to her knees and suffering through the reconstruction after the War Between The States and also the reconstruction of the “Equal Rights Movement”.

You insult all of those that have changed for the better, not to mention furthering stereotypes southerner’s have about those from the north. As far as I am concerned this thread you have started reeks of the classic “rude fucking Yankee label and if you don’t like it you can go the fuck back to cheese country” party line.

Thankfully I know that those north of the Mason Dixon can be just as gracious as those below and when push comes to shove most of us would die for the other and have been doing just that in the past two years.

While again, I respect your right to an opinion there is a right way and a wrong way to present your case and you sir took the dead end that leads right to the alligator pit …

I saw every type of bigotry one could think of while living in NYC. I even got to experience some real first hand stupidity during my many years there.

I love New York and I am forever emotionally tied to her. When I returned to Mississippi after 9/11 the people of this state, rich and poor, black and white opened up there wallets and raised over $25,000 dollars for a lost firefighter’s unborn child to have a college fund. Why because a fellow Mississippian beat the bushes and got up on TV to champion the cause and that was all they needed to hear.

I got to see first hand and up close the worst and best humanity had to offer on 9/11. It did not matter what color, state or country we just all pulled together and did what it took.

Right now there is a lot of resentment among some in Jackson due the demise of old downtown causing a migration out of the original metropolitan area. It is turning into a very similar situation that took place in Chicago after the race riots affected many suburbs in the 60’s and 70’s. There were a lot of factors that lead to this but it sure as hell was not because people did not want to invest to bring downtown back in a major renaissance.

The crime rate has skyrocketed in the last 15 years along with the number of officials in Jackson city office being investigated for wrongdoing. Many who have lived there all their lives have moved to Brandon, Madison and points north because of this. Even some of your most prestigious old neighborhoods like Eastover are being left behind due to the excessive crime.

I have a friend who is a surgeon at University Hospital and he says he spends a majority of his time trying to save young black men coming into the ER with gun shot wounds. The only place that probably has more experience in this field is Charity in New Orleans and Metropolitan in New York.

You might want to read up a little on where you live and its most recent history before you start running your mouth about why things might be a little tense among the locals and why there might be some divide. Your generalizing about a very broad picture just fucking adds to the problem.

To address your complaint regarding DUI lawyers, all I have to say is, “you have to be fucking kidding me”. Everywhere I go to any city in this country some num nut ambulance chaser is advertising on the local time or billboards.

I have satellite TV on one of my sets and in the Chicago local news was a 1-800 number by a lawyer that would get back any lotto winning you lost invested in the stock market. It is still an unwritten rule among attorneys that if you want to have any respect among your constituents you just don’t advertise.

Mississippi was one of the last states to actually cave to lawyers advertising because I can assure you Jacobe and Myers was at it in the late 70’s in NY and is kind of known for starting the tacky trend.

The hunting dog issue is just bullshit. One thing you can say about the hunters in this state, most hunting dogs get better treatment than the men give their wives. Now I am very involved with the Humane Society here and yes we do have our fair share of sick SOBs that are caught in animal abuse and cruelty cases but hopefully you wont have to worry long as I am pushing for the death penalty on this one. I think cases of animal cruilty regardless of state should be 5 year min…

On the religious front, well you are in the Bible belt. What did you expect?

Yes north Mississippi certainly has more than its fair share of Baptist. And I can certainly appreciate your resentment of their holier than thou attitude. I can go into any casino parking lot down here and it is packed with Hinds country license plates and I am willing to wage that 98% are probably sinning according to their faith…

We are a different breed down here on the gulf, mostly Catholic, Episcopal along with the light Methodist and Presbyterians…. While we certainly have the Baptist down here they know the fire and brimstone just does not fly too much so they don’t bother and there are joint functions with the Mosque as well as two Synagogues in the community.

I knew I was back in Dixie when I was in the movie theater and a joke was made regarding sitting Shiva being a fun thing to look forward to and I was the only that laughed. No one got it because they did not have a clue what sitting Shiva was. That is what those of Jewish faith do when someone dies. It is kind of the same as everyone gathering at the house and bringing food in case you.

Me, I don’t go to church and don’t care what people think of me for not attending. If you get married or die I might attend, if I really like you. Other than that, I don’t feel the need to go look a bunch of people who I either don’t care for or are just there for appearances.

I respect your right of worship as long as you don’t shove it in my face, kind of like sexuality. I don’t give a flying fuck if you sleep with a tri-cycle as long as I don’t have to watch and it is consensual.

I was considered a heathen at college and saw just how offensive I could be toward the over zealous Bible thumpers. That is what I loved about NY. Could pretty much live your life and no one gave a shit nor were they up in your business…

Religious hypocrisy was just as prominent in NY as it was in Mississippi. Just done from a different angle. While Mississippi is more geared to Christianity as being the dominant faith of choice, you can find the same bullshit elsewhere and for that matter all over the world and in every faith…

So why don’t you get down off that cross you have nailed yourself too Milwaukee because winter is here and we need the wood. I suggest you smile and tell them your religion is like income tax returns just really none of their business. Always worked for me …

Mississippi has produced many incredible people, black and white alike. She is the home state of Elvis Presley and Oprah Winfrey. She has supplied some of the most important Senators and Congressmen to our countries Federal Government (and no I am not talking about Trent Lott). Mississippi is the birthplace of the Blues, Krispy Kream Donuts, Barq’s Root beer and Dr. Tishners to name just a few name brands most of us love.

The contributions Mississippi’s citizens have made in the arts are immeasurable regardless if it music, literature, fine art or theator. Her architecture is a major drawing point for those that visit and her history was vital in making America the great country it is today warts and all…

You come in here and you make a judgment call against her and her people based on a piss poor generalizations. Your ignorance is just as offensive to me as some idiot throwing out the “n” word like they were asking the time …

Now I want to know just how in hell you figure Robert E Lee a traitor? While yes, no one would argue that the “War” has been over for more than 158 years ago many down here pride themselves on knowing their State and the regions history.

:dubious:

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This does more to support the OP than it does as a defense.

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I started reading all this, but being a back-woods country fuck, my train of thought soon dwindled. OK, I got bored. Whatever.

The South is the south. The people here have lived here, farmed the land, done an honest days work all their lives. They’ve worked hard for their property, their belongings, and what they’ve achieved, with whatever education was available to them. It’s a lifestyle here, and one that’s not going to be changed anytime soon.

No, this isn’t New York, and it doesn’t want to be. We’re proud of who we are, and where we are, and the simple life. And when we see the welfare recipients, and the lines of food stampers, then, yeah, it pisses us off. We WORK for our stuff, and sometimes ends don’t meet, but we do our damndest NOT to ask Unc Sam for a HANDOUT. It’s not a matter of colour, but a matter of ATTITUDE. We OWE the “outsiders” a handout, according to them, and there is no way to passify that feeling. I just left Food Lion tonight, and followed a woman paying for her groceries with food stamps. As she got into her 2000-something? Lexus.

But if I mention that, I’m a racist, I guess.

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Regarding that last sentence, I have to disagree.

Translation: WHAT?!!?!?

It seems to me that racial slurs applied to another ethnic group are inherantly, um, racist.

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  1. Same here, I skipped page 2.

  2. FYI: My perceptions of Yankee stereotypes of the South:

a) Regarding inbreeding: No, that one applies to a few parts of Appalachia about 100 years ago in reality and about 30 years ago in the movies (i.e. Deliverance)

b) Furthermore, in my experience, the South doesn’t have a monopoly on morons. This really isn’t part of it.

Actually, I’m thinking, “Wow, what a bizarre headset.” Not about advocating hard work: that’s good. But that a discussion of “Welfare” would segue so naturally into a discussion of race. I find this odd, since (as I’m sure you’re aware) most welfare recipients are white, unsurprisingly.

Furthermore, Southern States receive more from “Unc Sam” (as you put it) than Northern States receive.

Check it out:


Adjusted Federal Expenditures Per Dollar of State Taxes
Mississippi       $1.89
Alabama           $1.64
North Carolina  $1.07
Georgia             $1.01

New York          $0.85
New Jersey       $0.62
Connecticut       $0.65

Mississipians seem to have a pretty good relationship with the Feds, I’d say, judging from the disproportionate subsidies that they receive.
Source: PDF file on http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxingspending.html

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I’m not sure I have anything of use to add to this discussion but I’ll take a shot at it. BTW, I’m a northerner who’s lived for a brief while in the South and travelled extensively there.
Two things have been rattling around in my brain while reading this thread. 1.) The South isn’t monolithic but it does have a unique sense of identity and heritage. 2.) I don’t think the matter is just urban/rural.

I.) During my times in the South there was an usual emphasis on native-or-not. It was very suprising at first because even casual contacts underlined that I didn’t belong. Sometimes it was done subtlely and sometimes aggressively w/ a thin veneer of courtesy but it was there. Maybe it was defensive but it didn’t matter how hard I tried to adapt–slow down, chat more, be extra polite, tactful or just stay quiet–I had a very hard time being accepted.
It didn’t help that when I blended silently into the background I did hear some pretty shocking racial slurs from unexpected people. Now they DIDN’T always go (politely) unchallenged, far from it. I could be dead wrong about this but I got the impression there was a sort of cultural shorthand going on. The speakers assumed that everbody was “our sort” and understood something about how they meant it. Maybe a sense of common context or something were expected to soften the meaning. Even their fellow Southerners who challenged the remarks were slotted into a different, inside category.
It didn’t happen all the time but I must reluctantly admit that it happened more often than I was used to.

2.) Racism (and many other ills) happen when people–urban or rural–feel marginalized by poverty, lack of education, few chances, lack of respect, etc. It doesn’t suprise me at all that the worst hate groups sprang up in the rust belt of the north. Factories closed and threw people out of work, farms were lost, everything went to pot and all that frustration lashed out mindlessly. There are pockets of virulent haters in any city you want to name. The key isn’t geographic; it’s how people process their lacks. Sometimes the only lack is just humanity.

I’d guess that possibly the heritage of the South just gives a particular framework or label for some people to express it.

Veb

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I wasn’t try to offer a defense. I was trying to give an honest accessment of what is true and what is not.

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I hope you’re refering to years old, and not year born in. I can assure you it’s not a blanket statement either way.

SZ

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Hell yeah! I was born in 1964 (in Texas) - and believe my cats are superior to all of us.

In all seriousness, I did hear my (now deceased) grandmother refer to her housekeeper with the “n” word. She loved the woman, but it was an acceptable term in her generation, circa Texarkana, TX, 1970’s.

I do believe the South has a long way to go, I can’t say I don’t still see evidence of racism. However, I’ve visited damn near every small town in Texas, and I truly believe in the good hearts of those in my state.

My husband’s from Louisiana, and I don’t get a good feeling from him as to the treatment of non-whites there. (Just one person’s opinion).

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What a sad thread this is.

  • PW
138

Thanks (I think).

Grew up in Atlanta,GA, within the city proper. This means I didn’t encounter a geniune Southern accent until college.

I think it’s foolish for people to believe the South and the North are exactly the same when it comes to race relations. They have never been the same. Yes, there is more blatant racism down there. For instance, it was common knowledge growing up that if you were black, you should stay away from Forsyth County in Georgia. Even white people knew it was a bad place to live. I don’t think it’s as notorious now, but I think it illustrates the reality.

However, I would be wary drawing generalizations from life spent in one city. For instance, my first brush with overt racism was when my high school orchestra visited Pensacola, Fl (shudder). Our multicultural group was harrassed by a gang of numbnuts, and “nigger” was dropped on us several times. I was so glad when we left that God-awful place. If I hadn’t known any better, I would have thought all of Florida, or all of the South…or even all of Pensacola…was like that. And it’s not.

I’ve noticed racism while I’ve been up here in Jersey. I’ve been exposed to it in places and ways that I wouldn’t expect. And NJ has it’s share of dumb people. Sometimes I think everyone in little ole Atlanta is smarter than all the people living in NJ put together. :slight_smile:

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flowbark, I think you were right to challenge the statement that Southern states get by on their own pride with nary a government handout. However, I’m compelled to point out that there are some reasons Southern States get so much money. I know you’ve heard of Trent Lott and Sam Nunn. Those dollars are not all flowing to progressive social programs that should erase the problems those states. Nor are they handouts the people ask for. Their elected reps land the money because they care about their home states, and because it makes them popular with their voters.

To clarify (to those of the rest of you who seem to dismayed by the “apologists”), I never said there were no racists in the South. I said we’ve got similar problems and attitudes everywhere in the country. From where I stand, finger-pointing doesn’t seem like the productive way to start fixing this crap.

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Yeah, my experience has been that most people from Atl. aren’t still trying to hold onto the “old south.” They really are different from people from small town/rural south. I am convinced that Jackson Miss. is a gateway to hell. I have only visited once as an adult, and I couldn’t get out of that town fast enough.