I don't think people around here realize what the South is really like

The BBQ Pit
161

Depends on where you live. Growing up in NE Ohio, it didn’t seem to be. The classes up until the 6th grade tended to focus a lot on local history.

Then I moved south (NC/SC), and it was a big deal, indeed.

Moved to Baltimore, where it didn’t seem to play as big a role in the culture.

Then to Hershey, Pa., near Gettysburg, and it’s a big deal here.

Another factor in play is that the Civil War was a bureaucratic war, meaning there’s a lot of paperwork floating around. People can trace their ancestors’ role in the war. They may not know what happened to them before, or afterwards, but for those few years, you’ve got a connection to the past, and it becomes very important if the best your family has ever done was to fight in one of the battles.

162

Ya know, I agree with lokij. The South has just not had time to heal the old wounds.

Also, tilly, I appreciated your post as well.

Still, I challenge the assertion that we’re not doing anything about it. Especially Jackson. The Clarion-Ledger just completed an in-depth, thought provoking series on the changing times of Jackson. Within these stories you will meet people, black and white, working together to bring about more racial harmony. The hard feelings and racism existing today were not caused overnight; education and reconciliation will not happen overnight either.

I will suggest this to the O.P.: If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Do like progressive people do … when that lady knocks MLK, Jr., you might say " I’ve read some of his writings … it’s really good … he has a lot of healing things to say about the races".

Education is the key. Kids of my generation were more racially progressive than the previous. (Integration of schools only came to me in the 4th grade). Kids of my children’s generation are even more so.

Like the example above of the ‘crazy aunt’, it’s kinda like this… we know we have problems; we wrestle with them every day. We get owly or grouchy and lash out at each other. But - we’re still family, to each other. Fellow Mississippians. It’s one thing for my buddy to call me a “cracker” in a heated dispute … but quite another for an “outsider” to do so.

Mississippians are wary of this. As has already been said, we’ve been beaten up and held up for ridicule and scorn. We’re tired of it. That’s the whole origin of the “don’t let the door hit ya” sentiment. Give us a little credit why don’t ya? :mad:

163

One measure for the tolerance of a region towards African Americans is the rate of net migration. Admittedly, I suspect that economic opportunities (given the citizen’s skill set) would explain most net migration. Still, if a region is adamantly hostile to a given minority, I would think that fewer would choose to move there.Net Migration Rates, 1995-2000



State/Region      Total     African American       Afr Am - Total

NorthEast       -25.5             -41.6                -16.1
Midwest          -9.1             -10.9                -1.8
West              0.2             -18.0                -18.2
South            20.2              20.8                0.6

Alabama          6.3                6.6                0.3
Mississippi      10.4              -2.9                -13.3
North Carolina   48.4              35.0                -13.4

Conclusion 1: African Americans are fleeing the Northeast. Heck, everyone is fleeing the Northeast, but African Americans are fleeing faster. The South enjoys a lot of net immigration from the rest of the country, and African Americans appear to be moving to that region in a proportionate manner.

Mississippi may have its work cut out for it though: whites (and Hispanics, as it happens) were attracted to the region, while African Americans appeared to back away from it somewhat. Alabama is doing better, in this regard.

Still, a lot of factors affect migration, so these results should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt. Furthermore, I should note that Mississippi African American In-Migration and Out-Migration are in the range of 51000 - 55000; the net difference is small relative to the gross movement.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/migration.html

164

Let me give an example of “Civil War tradition.” Ever been to Harpers Ferry National Historical Park?

I was there not too long ago for the first time. I was struck by how surreal the whole experience was. There were “Confederate troops” performing in full Confederate regalia and doing musket drills.

The places I’m familiar with in VA are not just steeped in Civil War tradition – as balky as that sounds – but US tradition. Maybe people are reading too much into “Civil War tradition.” I’m talking about living next to a battlefield or a cemetary, not buying a “buck negroe for $500” in Charleston.

Nobody I know personally wants to repeal the 13th Amendment. As usual, bringing up the rear flank, we can cheerlead most of the war from here. Y’all try not to start another meatgrinding bloodbath again.

165

flowbark: YAAY! Maybe the house prices’ll come down a bit around here?
Nah, never happen.

166

Ok, this is not really adding to the thread, but The Onion seems to be with us with this article.

Carry on.

167

If you’d ever bothered to CONFRONT one of those racists, and heard them respond with, “Oh, I wasn’t referring to ALL black people, just the lazy ones,” you’d understand how funny this latest statement is.

Why, I wonder, haven’t you confronted the racists? No, it’s not always pretty: I almost got jumped by a coworker once when I glared at her for saying that Mexicans were shitty tippers, and when I followed up by telling her I thought maybe her attitude toward Mexicans might have something to do with the tips she got. But you gotta do it. If we’re gonna change peoples attitudes, we’ve gotta make it clear that it’s NOT acceptable for them to spout racist bullshit.

Maybe that’s why I don’t hear it as often as you do. Maybe it’s because I tell people to their faces that they’re being offensive, instead of insulting them on a messageboard where they won’t ever hear it.

Andy, as usual, is too stupid to bother with.

Daniel

168

It’s just a wee bit presumptuous to go around “changing people’s attitudes.” Sanctimonious politically correctness is just as obnoxious as racial and ethnic prejudice.

169

What? You’re telling me it’s obnoxious to try to change people’s attitudes about other races? That trying to convince people racial equality is a good thing is just as abhorrent as believing other races are inferior?

Jesus Christ. Talk about tolerance run amok.

Daniel

170

LHofD, I think you have to pick your battles.

If a friend of mine says something stupid, I’m going to say something. I’ve done it before plenty of times. I might also say something if it’s an aquaintance. Then they would know that I don’t take no truck with racism.

However, if I’m in a strange location surrounded by strange people, and one of them exposes their racism, I’m not going to confront them (unless it’s directed toward a defenseless person, like a child). This could be potentially dangerous. I would do what I would normally do when exposed to scary belief systems: ignore them and get the hell out of dodge.

Besides, you aren’t going to change someone’s mind by glaring at them.

171

monstro, I agree to some extent. Two examples from ten years ago (as I said, explicit racism has been relatively rare in my life):

  • A new coworker of mine looked at some plumbing, sneered, and said, “That’s a nigger job if I ever seen one.” On seeing my scowl, he hastened to add, “I’m not a racist! That’s just slang for a sloppy job, is all.” I shook my head, told him all the same I’d rather him not talk like that, and let it go. He never talked like that around me again.
  • An elderly woman had locked her keys in her car in the mall parking lot and accosted me, asking me to help her get the keys out. She was very sweet, very grateful for my help (even though I was totally unqualified for the job, I spent about fifteen minutes fruitlessly trying to coathanger her lock open). Then a black man walked by, and she called to him, “Excuse me! Could you help me for a minute?” He smiled, shook his head, kept walking to his car. The woman turned back to me, muttered, “lazy nigger,” and went on trying to get help. I was shocked, but I didn’t say anything, except to tell her politely I couldn’t help her further.

In the first case, I don’t know that I did any good, unless it was to let this guy know that casual racism wasn’t okay around other white people. Did this have any effect on his attitude? Probably not; all the same, I would’ve felt shitty if I hadn’t said anything to him.

In the second case, I’m pretty sure the woman didn’t connect her racist slur with my retraction of my (admittedly useless) help. No good at all done. Would it have done any good to argue with her? Probably not. All the same, I wish I’d said something to her, maybe said, “Wow. I can’t help you if you’re going to talk like that, sorry.”

I guess I just figure that it’s inappropriate to let casual racism go unchallenged, if challenging it isn’t going to endanger you.

I definitely agree that if the situation is dangerous, there’s no moral obligation to challenge people on it, though.

Daniel

172

I actually saw a [sub]tiny[/sub] Confederate flag on a bumper sticker on a jacked-up pickup truck today. The writing was so small that, even tailgating, I could not read it. It started with “This flag…”

I’ve been looking carefully ever since these threads started. OK, that’s one guy just waiting to vote for Howard Dean.

173

As silence generally implies agreement or consent, I will insist on making my disagreement with these “attitudes” well known.

Dumb fuck.

174

Here!

Through SD I heard about one that is younger that I. (I turned 60 in July; he is still in his fifties.) Granddaddy was at Shiloh, although he didn’t fight, and he did fight at Stone’s River.

Civil War history is all around me. From my window I can see a street that just a few miles away becomes known as “Battery Lane.”

The South does seem to have a passion for history in general. Colonial America is alive and thriving in Williamsburg, Virginia. It is something to behold!

I have become convinced since this thread began that whether or not we experience much racism in the South depends on where we live and the people whose company we keep. That’s overstating it a bit, but how else can we explain the differences in experience?

175

I moved to southern Mississippi in 1998. Until they, I’d been living in Missouri and Florida. I knew what racism was, but hadn’t really seen it up close. I was aware of the stereotypes about the South, but I knew stereotypes were often wrong.

Moving here was a culture shock, to say the least. My family lived in a relatively rural area and I went to a small high school (maybe 700 students). My parents expected it to be like the small towns they lived in in Missouri. It wasn’t.

Up to the year I started, the high school had a regulation in place to ensure that if at least one black girl ran for homecoming court, at least one black girl would make it. When several black students transferred to the school, the administrators suddenly became convinced we had a “gang problem” and banned hair beads and bandannas. There was a crowd of white kids who fit every redneck stereotype you can imagine, right down to the cheekful of chew, whose idea of fun was to drive their pickups with the Confederate flags waving behind up and down the main street of the “black” neighborhood in town while shouting threats.

A friend of mine (who is white) dated a black girl in high school. That was five years ago. Some people still refuse to talk to him because he is “tainted” and his mother was basically forced to quit a business because so many of her clients left her when it got around who her son was dating.

In school, I was discouraged from studying “hard” subjects like science and math because I was a girl and should be taking home-ec and child development. I walked into a computer store with a CCNA and a short resume to apply for a summer job and not only did the guy at the counter laugh at me, but he called his boss so he could take a look at the little honey who thought she knew something about computers.

I don’t know how high the teen pregnancy rate is now, but at one time my county had the highest rate in the country. A girl on the homecoming court my freshman year had had a baby and gotten married in 8th grade. Probably 5 or 6 (out of a class of 100) girls dropped out due to pregnancy my senior year. The guidance counselors simple told them to give up on classes and stay home, not even to bother with a GED. Many times I got the impression that the only time a girl was valued was when she won in the numerous beauty pageants or when she “scored” a good husband.

The majority of the population is Southern Baptist with Catholics coming in second. In my area, anyone outside those denominations is targeted for conversion. I don’t mean all of them are that bad, but there are small groups of people who seem to have made it their mission to convert every heathen on the planet and nobody seems to have any problem with them at all. If they don’t accept, they are properly shunned. Even if you are a Christian, but don’t carry a Bible and indulge in making your faith very very public, you’re subject to shunning. If I sound a little harsh, please excuse me. My high school was the site of a revival in 2000 and the stuff I saw happen because of it still makes me angry.

I had one teacher who showed us videos on different religions - all while heckling MST3k-style and encouraging students to join in. Another history teacher held a mock election and allowed a guy to run for the “no fags” party. His sole platform was “getting the fags annihilated.” The TEACHER stood up and clapped in front of the class, but only 3 or 4 of us objected to it… and we were all non-natives. Complaining about it was no use, as both teachers were related to practically everyone in the county and nobody seemed to even have a problem with what they did.

Everyone here seems to belong to one of about 5 families. A girl I went to school with would check her Grandma’s Bible before she went on a date to make sure the boy wasn’t related to her too closely.

I think a lot of people here are just scared of the unfamiliar. When I go to school in Hattiesburg, people are pretty “normal” to me. Where my parents live, the town was basically isolated until the past decade when more outsiders started to move in. Especially in the education system, local people tend to think “This is the way it’s always been, why change?” Now that people who think differently are coming in and asking questions, the fireworks have started.

Things appear to be changing down here. Just slowly. With increased internet access and so many new people moving in, the people who are stuck in the past are being dragged into the new century whether they want to be or not. The stories I’ve told aren’t anything extraordinary here - they are the ordinary. Sometimes I find that sad, but I take comfort in knowing that things have gotten better in just the last few years I’ve been here. I hope the trend continues.

176

The only one I ever heard was a pal of mine who constantly listened to Ghetto-Rap music.

177

Am I the only one that thought of Arnie with half a cyborg eye showing coming to my door with a Bible?

178

Astra, that is interesting about the number of Catholics. That just shows what a difference in location can do. In our town of 2,000, there was only one Catholic and that was how I knew her. She walked by our house one day and Mother said, “There’s the Catholic woman.” That’s all I knew. I didn’t know anyone but Protestants until I got to college.

Very insightful post.

179

Thanks, Zoe

I live about an hour from New Orleans, which has a much higher Catholic population. Many of the new people moving to my area are originally from New Orleans and the surrounding cities. More and more people are keeping jobs there and commuting from up to two hours away.

Your description of “the Catholic woman” sounds like Jews in my community. I know of two, and one of them moved away after being treated so horribly at our high school.

180

Please people be for real…the south, including SC C3, is not only racist, but convince themselves they’re not. NOTE: the war is over, you lose and the sons of your slaves is here to stay. We will continue to grow in numbers and knowlegde. In little over 30 years, the amount of time that education has really been availible to us, we have become mayors, congressmen\women, and yes, even Governors. And just like the Jews believe so do we…NEVER AGAIN, NEVER