I don't understand holocaust denial

Specifically, I on’t understand some of the psychology involved.

First, I have not looked into any of this carefully or deeply. I’m just reacting to the popular understanding of it. And I would not presume to address the facts of the holocaust itself.

The first thing I don’t get is the hostile reaction to so-called holocaust denial. Suppose someone said, "Hey, everyone! I have evidence that it wasn’t 6,000,000 jews that died. It was only 600,000. Someone slipped in an extra 0 by mistake. " One quite understandable response to that would be “Whew! What a relief! We’re so glad that 5.4 million Jews did NOT die.” Another is, “Would that it were true. But unfortunately it is only wishful thinking. Unfortunately.” The response “How dare you suggest that less jews died!” is just weird. Never mind sending people to jail for it.

My point is not so much to criticize it. I really don’t understand it.

Then there is the other side: modern Nazis. If the historical Nazis hated Jews–which is certainly true whether or not they killed them—why would there be a correlation between holocaust denial and Nazi sympathy? There does seem to be a correlation there. At least some of the Holocaust deniers are Nazi sympathizers. If you were a modern Nazi and shared the view of the historical Nazi, wouldn’t you be PROUD of the killing of 6 million jews? Because that’s seriously an accomplishment.

Seems to me that a modern Nazi would be more likely to exaggerate the holocaust than diminish it. That is, if they hate Jews like their antecedents did.

And shouldn’t it be Jews that, even if not agreeing with Holocaust deniers, would sympathize with the wishful thinking behind it? Shouldn’t it be Jews who would most want fewer Jews to have been killed?

I might not type a response to everyone who replies but I am reading them all. Thanks.

Holocaust denial gets a hostile reaction because it’s denying or minimizing that an awful thing that did happen happened. It’s perfectly understandable that people respond with ‘how dare you suggest that killing millions of people didn’t happen when we have piles of physical evidence, reams of testimonial evidence, and mountains of documentary evidence directly from the people who did it.’

It may seem to you that modern Nazis would be more likely to exaggerate the holocaust than diminish it, but it’s not what they do. Much like with holocaust denial, we have to live in the real world and can’t just ignore evidence out of hand. And no, Jews generally do not sympathize with Nazis, and with people who want to pretend that Nazi crimes didn’t happen so they can repeat them. Not sure why you’d expect them to, but they don’t.

“Wishful thinking” isn’t what comes to mind when one thinks of the motivation of Holocaust deniers. More like “whitewashing historical fact to paint their intellectual predecessors in a more favorable light”.

I think what you’re overlooking is the heavily suspect nature of such counterfactual claims. If somebody said to you “Hey, I have evidence that black people were never actually enslaved in the Americas, it was all an elaborate ruse for tax purposes!”, would you respond “Whew! What a relief!”?

Or would your awareness of the overwhelming historical evidence for the well-known fact of black enslavement lead you to suspect the claimant’s motives in making such an obviously false assertion? Wouldn’t the simplest explanation be that the claimant was just a lying or delusional racist turd trying to downplay or discredit the extent of the injustice done to blacks?

Similarly, anybody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the facts of the Holocaust knows that the estimates of its genocidal extent don’t rest on some single record of a number in which some transcriber could have “slipped in an extra 0 by mistake”. Consequently, anybody who tries to make any such claim is most likely a lying or delusional antisemitic turd trying to minimize the injustice done to Jews.

Why would you think that any such ahistorical assertions deserve any more respectful response than a straightforward “How dare you tell such a lie!”?

And speaking of implausible claims that suggest potentially suspect motives, I have to point out that this looks an awful lot like insinuating that Jews who resent attempts at Holocaust denial are trying to play up the Jewish genocide for sympathy. :dubious:

Sure, Jews would naturally want fewer Jews to have been killed in the Holocaust. The thing is that the vast majority of Jews are not sufficiently ignorant of the elementary facts of the Holocaust to find any such allegations even remotely plausible. And expecting Jews to regard such counterfactual claims in a positive light because they hypothetically imply fewer Jewish deaths, instead of denouncing such counterfactual claims because they’re a load of irresponsible whitewashing bullshit, is adding insult to injury.

You aren’t expressing any confusion over holocaust denial. If anything, you’re defending it. Disingenuous OP.

Just as a thought exercise, substitute “my family” for “Jews” and see how plays out in your mind.

Modern Nazi would have a hard time recruiting new members if the pitch was “We hate every unwhite person ever becuase of, …like reasons and stuff. Oh! And we endorse genocide as well as regular murder too!”

When the real pitch is " we’re just regular people who are proud of our heritage, if you don’t feel like you fit in the world maybe you could find a place you finally feel comfortable in right here with us."

Hate doesn’t sell to the masses, but acceptance damn sure does.

Something that came up in a previous holocaust-denial thread was that the deniers tend not to have much of an answer as to where those 5.4 million people went. It’s not a clerical error; these people disappeared. They didn’t just go hide in Grandma’s basement. The deniers get pretty vehement about not needing to explain what actually happened.

Firstly it’s not the actual numbers that are controversial, unless of course you’re reducing them to ridiculously low figures (and 600,000 is ridiculously low). There is nothing sacred about the six million figure, it was just an estimate at the time. The modern estimate generally accepted is that between 5 to 6 million Jews died in the war, about a million of them in Auschwitz. If you say that only, for example, 3 million died would you be branded a Holocaust denier? Depends where you are. That number I suppose might land you in prison in countries where Holocaust denial is a crime, a much lesser definitely would. But wherever you are you’d need to back up your assertion or you would be seen as at least sympathetic to deniers if not one yourself.

Why would neo-Nazis deny the Holocaust rather than being proud of 6 million Jews being killed? Because they want it both ways. I’m sure that they wish the number were even greater but at the same time they dislike the sympathy generated for the Jews by the Holocaust and for that reason they need to belittle it.

Of course Jews themselves would wish the numbers lower. If it could be proved that only half a million died and the rest were spirited away somewhere to some remote and isolated land where their descendants thrive they would be delighted. But it doesn’t follow that they will sympathize with the ridiculous figures that hatemongers come up with. Why on earth should they be pleased that the murders of their relatives are being denied? That doesn’t make sense.

If you say to a Jew, “It wasn’t 6,000,000, it was 600,000,” and you say it to a Jew who actually lost family, the emotional reaction is “Are you saying my brother did not die at Auschwitz?” Also, “deniers” of the ilk who assert that well, yes, 6,000,000 Jews died, but there was no “Final Solution,” most people did not die in gas chambers, they died of typhus or exhaustion or something, it matters not a bit to a Jew. My aunt’s brothers are just as dead and lost in a mass grave (or a crematorium) whether they died in a gas chamber or of a disease. Ditto for Anne Frank.

Also, there are the survivors to consider. They suffered, and often were affected for the rest of their lives. My aunt’s father was given milk to drink as the first food he had after his camp was liberated. It made him so sick, he could never drink milk again for years, and could not eat and dairy at all even for several years. One of his daughters was a hidden child, so while she was safe, she was traumatized emotionally, and it probably is at the root of her failed marriage. I think she had PTSD, because she was, from her perspective, abandoned by her family, and it was more than a decade before she could begin to understand why. She also was inducted into Christianity, and had to learn to be Jewish again, and never really had the comfort of Judaism that her siblings did.

My aunt has been disabled to various degrees-- she’s always had at the least a slight limp, and now she has had part of one leg amputated-- she gets along well with a prosthesis, but it didn’t have to happen. It’s the result of the malnutrition of being in hiding as a very small child. When she was in elementary school, she wore a brace that made people think she had survived polio.

Her oldest sister was in Belsen, and survived because she was pretty and blonde. She looked Germanic, even if she was Jewish, and she was part of what was named, post hoc, the “Joy Division,” women prisoners kept for the use and “pleasure” of the guards and occasionally visiting soldiers. It’s probably why she survived, though, because such women got better food, clothes without lice, and weekly hot showers. She also got very light duties around the camp, compared to being worked to death as the men and other women were. She also got pregnant. The baby didn’t make it, but it was a boy. So she can’t marry a cohen, and her first born son in marriage won’t count as her first born son (her first born child in marriage managed to be a girl, so, no worries there, though).

Imagine saying “I’ve just discovered that spousal abuse doesn’t really happen-- it’s all just misunderstandings.” You have invalidated the traumatic, and often defining experiences of many women’s lives, and have called into question the work of people who put in 50 hour weeks running shelters to help these women, and lawyers doing their pro-bono work on these cases. It’s cruel. That’s what it’s like. It’s cruel to call into question what we know to be true about the Holocaust.

I am as lost as you on denial by neo-Nazis. They hate us, and you’d think they’d be proud of the “work” the real Nazis did. There’s even an episode of the TV show Quincy that addresses this. Some young neo-Nazi gets what for from an actual former Nazi who is proud of what he did, and it turns the young guy around (it’s not the only thing-- actually meeting and knowing some Jewish people, and of course, some Quincy magic are also necessary). It’s one of the better episodes from the “message” stage of the show, when it stopped being about a coroner solving murder mysteries, and started being a “crusade of the week” show.

Let me add, though you didn’t ask, that I am against censorship, and I think people have the right to hate us. They don’t have the right to hurt us, though. There is a big, fat, visible-from-space line between the two.

5 millions non Jewish people were a also killed during the holocaust , 11 millions people were killed . :mad: :frowning:

No, the outrage is not understandable. Not to me. If it’s a matter of people being slanted away from what actually happened toward what they would prefer to have happened… well, I would think Jews and people who like Jews would sympathize with the people who lean towards the Holocaust did not happen.

I did not say anything in the OP regarding Jews sympathizing with Nazis. At least not that I intended to.

This is a similar question. Would you not be relieved to learn that the injustices done to Africans in America were less? Would that not be a good thing? Now someone presenting such a thesis might be wrong… but if so, we should be disappointed. not outraged.

I am aware that is a potential explanation of Jewish resentment of Holocaust denial. I feigned ignorance of it in the OP because I did not want to slant the discussion in one direction or another. What OTHER explanations are there?

:rolleyes: That’s like saying that people who’ve lost a beloved family member to cancer ought to sympathize with their loony coworker who prefers to pretend that the death didn’t happen.

How would you feel about a coworker who keeps insisting that your late lamented mother/father/brother/whoever isn’t actually dead after all? Are you required to “sympathize” with them, or is it reasonable to be angry because they’re ignoring the actuality of your loss and pain for the sake of making believe in a falsehood?

People who try to deny well-attested tragic events are at best delusional fuckwits and at worst malevolent revisionists. They do not get the benefit of the doubt just because it would be nice if the transparent lies they’re peddling could somehow actually be true.

I am not. I have no reason to think the Holocaust didn’t happen according to consensus. (Though I will add I have not looked into it much.) What I am more interested in is the controversy… especially since in some countries it is a crime and people go to prison for it. While most people in the USA are against that sort of thing, it seems to me that some people are sympathetic to the motivations for it. And that’s precisely what I don’t understand.

I don’t think is a good analogy… even though there are people alive today who had oved ones that were lost. Because we’re not talking about individuals. If I say that only 100,000 jews died, that is irrelevant to your personal loss of a loved one … or two… or 20 … who might have been counted among those 100,000.

Just to underscore this point…the above is a completely hypothetical point. I am NOT questioning the actual history of the event itself.

I almost included this as a third question in the OP. Why are those non-Jewish deaths not controversial. Really, no one seems to care about them one way or the other.

“Disappointment” implies that the false claim was plausible enough to get our hopes up in the first place. Nobody except outright cretins or cave-dwelling hermits would find claims that slavery or the Holocaust never happened sufficiently credible to react to their refutation with feelings of disappointment.

When somebody tells outright lies about well-known and well-established facts, the natural response is outrage at the lie rather than disappointment that the lie turned out not to be true. We already knew the lie wasn’t true from the very moment that the liar uttered it.

:dubious: Well, that cat’s out of the bag, at least. Would you also assume that African-Americans who resent attempts to deny the existence of slavery are trying to play up slavery for sympathy?