I don't understand holocaust denial

And the Japanese must find such comfort in that.

“Jews and people who like Jews”?

Seriously. If someone killed your sister, and at the trial, the defense was that she must have died of natural causes, wouldn’t you be outraged?

A heck of a lot of Jews went some place. Saying that they just died, as opposed to being helped along to their deaths by any means: gas chambers, typhus (which is transmitted by lice), starvation, bullets, outrages Jews, and not just “people who like them,” but anyone with a sense of decency.

The handwriting was on the wall for Ayds anyway. Its active ingredient was outlawed shortly after ephedrine. It’s why you never hear about “Dexatrim” anymore, either.

I gather, as best I can discern, that the OP is arguing that:

  1. Picture these two concepts:
    (a) One’s sister died of natural causes.
    (b) One’s sister was murdered.

  2. Option 1.a. is more comforting than 1.b., so why would anyone determinedly resist 1.b. when meeting someone who suggests 1.a.?

I don’t get what he doesn’t get, truth be told. We could just casually adopt a “what’s done is done” position regarding the past and make no effort to study murders, I suppose, but there’s a difference between being laconic about 1.b. and being indifferent to (or embracing) people who for some reason feel motivated to say 1.b. did not happen and could not have happened, indeed the only reason anyone even thinks 1.b. happened is because of a massive decades-long conspiracy.

Minor error, when I said:

…I meant, why would anyone determinedly maintain 1.b. in the face of someone suggesting 1.a., if 1.a. is more comforting?

Of course, in the general case, the 1.a. idea that your relatives died of typhus in a concentration camp (instead of being gassed in one, or as was more common, being marched out of their recently-captured town and shot) isn’t really all that comforting.

How many other genocidal regimes are toppled by exterior forces less than five years after they started their genocide? Stalin was in power for thirty years, and was succeeded by a series of party apparatchiks for decades. Lots and lots of time to destroy or doctor records to present only the history you want presented, and to let people who saw what you did first hand die out or be intimidated into silence. The Nazis, thank God, were never granted that opportunity - everything they did was put on full display for the world to see while the events were still fresh.

I’d bet all of the above has happened at least once, if not several times. Arguments are like catnip for many on this board. It is simultaneously one of its greatest strengths and biggest weaknesses.

I guess the most recent comparable case is Cambodia (1975-9) for short-lived yet determinedly brutal genocides ended by external intervention, but the Khmer Rouge seemed determined to discard modern technology, including record keeping, so I wouldn’t bet on precision.

Possibly the most contentious modern genocide is 1971 Bengali. The key players seem more dedicated to their official policies regarding the conflict (Pakistan: 26000; India: 300,000; Bangladesh: 3 million) rather than any particular commitment to accuracy, so no help there.

Re-read my initial post above. At the Nuremberg Trial and in the western media following the war, it was claimed that “gas chambers” existed in those camps in Germany.

For example, it was claimed and accepted as “fact” that there were mass-murder “gas chambers” at Dachau. And in fact, on the basis of survivor “eyewitness testimony” and a photograph released by the Americans, there was a time immediately after the war when the whole world believed that there were “gas chambers” at Dachau in which many Jews were killed.

At Buchenwald, horrific photos of these gruesome scenes were immediately circulated after WWII and have been widely reproduced ever since, giving the impression that Buchenwald was a mass killing center. The chief British prosecutor at the main Nuremberg trial, Sir Hartley Shawcross, declared in his closing address that

Paul Rassinier, was a French university professor, who fought in the French resistance and was awarded a decoration by the French government after the war. Rassinier became the “founder” of “Holocaust revisionism” because although he had been interned in several concentration camps in Germany due to his anti-Nazi activities during the war, he never saw a “gas chamber” in any of the camps.

The claims about people being killed in gas chambers contradicted by pathology evidence by the likes of Dr Larson, and also the evidence of the physicians I mentioned above. **They couldn’t inspect the camps in Poland as they were under Soviet control. **

In other words, immediately after the war, claims were made that were at variance with today’s “accepted facts,” which have themselves changed.

We are expected to accept that the testimony about Dachau & Buchenwald that was presented at Nuremburg, was false, but the claims about use of gas chambers in Poland (which could not be checked by US pathologists), were accurate?

Even though:

a) British Intelligence decrypts of communications at Auschwitz from 1942 onwards also refer to typhus outbreaks causing deaths (not gas),
b) there were several orders to reduce the death rates
c) The fact 3,000 babies were safely born at the maternity ward at Auschwitz (not a single death in childbirth)
d) The Red Cross visited the camps and reported on the outbreaks of typhus, especially towards the end of the war as supply lines were cut off.
e) There were football games right next to the Krema where people were supposedly being sent to the gas chamber? The Red Cross supplied uniforms for the teams
f) There was a swimming pool used by inmates and choir (see Jerusalem Post article I noted above - " ‘The Chorale from [Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony] was… performed by a Jewish children’s choir at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1943… I was a member of that choir… I… remember my first engagement with culture, with history, and with music-in the camp…’"
g) There was a Post-Office.
h) Analysis of the cyanide levels on the walls at Auschwitz shows high levels in the delousing areas where clothing and bedding was treated for lice, and negligible levels in the claimed killing areas.

This strongly contradicts the theory that there was mass killing going on.

Remember the Allies deliberately spread rumors about “gas chambers” in German-occupied Europe through leafleting and radio broadcasts. Maria Vanherwaarden’s evidence was that she was told of those rumours on the way to Auschwitz in 1942. However, what happened was they had their hair shaved and were showered. In her time there from 1942-January 1945 the deaths she saw were due to black fever and typhus.

The anticlimactic truth was that gas chambers were for disinfecting clothes contaminated by lice. In other words, in the closing days of the war, the sanitary conditions in the concentration camps deteriorated markedly and outbreaks of eruptive typhus became a serious problem. As a countermeasure, the German military, which did not have DDT, used a hydrocyanic insecticide called Zyklon B to disinfect the clothes belonging to Jews and other camp inmates.

The thread title is misspelled; it should be: “Living With Autism”

I am willing to accept a level of propaganda at the end of the war. That not all camps were extermination camps, there were no gas-showers in places they were supposed to be, the famous photographs of piles of corpses are typhoid victims etc. etc.

But we do have footage of mass executions and, as iiandyiiii posted, testomony from Himmler himself that extermination was indeed the goal.

So whether they ‘only’ managed to murder 600.000 (which would be a ridiculously low number) or 6.000.000 does not take away from the fact that they actually tried it in the first place.

Once again Chen019 ignores the recorded words of Heinrich Himmler trying to steel his men for the need to exterminate Jewish women and children. That’s par for the course for Holocaust deniers – there’s mountains of evidence, so they try (and usually fail anyway) to nitpick tiny little aspects of it as if this means they can pretend the remaining mountain of evidence doesn’t count.

This is a remarkable assertion.

There actually was a gas chamber at Dachau, although it was not used for mass execution.
Dachau was not an extermination camp, but a work camp, (although executions, particularly of Soviet prisoners, were carried out there).
Thousands of bodies and thousands of emaciated prisoners were discovered at Dachau by Allied troops liberating the camp.

Given the above facts, it is not surprising that some reports of work camps and death camps were conflated. Using the confusion regarding those reports to try to discredit the history of the Holocaust is a classic example of Holocaust denial. However, to join in that denial despite overwhelming evidence that it occurred is nothing more than anti-semitism or pro-Nazi propaganda.

As to your lettered “facts”:
[ul]
[li]a) reports of typhus do not mean that executions did not occur, only that the conditions were so poor that some died of disease before they could be murdered, It is not an either/or situation. [/li][li]b) The nazis wanted to reduce deaths by typhus because they did not want it spreading to their own troops before the people could be murdered [/li][li]c) This is an unlikely claim for which I have seen no evidence.[/li][li]d) Again, the presence of Typhus hardly precludes the execution of others…[/li][li]e) Auschwitz was actually a series of camps, not a single entity. The football fields were for the Prisoners of War being held in an adjacent camp and the surviving PoWs note the presence of the gas chambers and crematoria.[/li][li]f) Since the Germans could not instantly annihilate everyone who got off a train, they did allow a number of “morale” events to occur in the hope of avoiding riots and misdirecting inmates of the actual purpose of the camps.[/li][li]g) The Nazis made most arriving prisoners write letters home describing the “wonderful” place they had been brought so as to reduce the rumors of what was actually occurring. [/li][li]h) This nonsense has been refuted on numerous occasions…[/li][/ul]

I am not a holocaust scholar. However, I have had occasion to look up the numbers on previous occasions.

Zyklon-B is indeed an insecticide. However, it is much more efficient at killing people than at killing lice. Killing lice requires up to 72 hours in a closed environment containing a Zyklon-B concentration of up to 16,000 parts per million in the air. By contrast, a concentration of 300 ppm will kill a human being in 15 minutes. Cite. “No trace of poison on the walls” is therefore misleading, because the low poison density and low time of exposure would not have been sufficient to leave much residue.

In addition, tested samples were illegally chipped from the walls of one of the gassing rooms with a hammer and chisel. These hunks of wall were tested and found to have little to no toxin. Why? Well, when you give a rock to a lab and say, “Test this for cyanide,” the first thing they do is crush the entire sample into powder, then test it all. They weren’t told to test only the surface. So, the small part that should have been tested was diluted many millions of times by subsurface stuff that any toxin wouldn’t have penetrated. Cite.

One question I’ve raised before that I’ve never received a satisfactory answer to: if the camps were so innocent, why did they purchase and install so many crematory ovens? In 1942, the six ovens at the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp were deemed insufficient, and new crematoria (II thru V) were installed, bringing the number of crematory ovens to 52. By June, 1943, the 52 ovens were capable of burning 4,756 bodies per day. When the ovens were installed, the population of the camp was less than 30,000 prisoners, male and female. Cite for all this. Why did they need so many ovens?

Oh yeah, on the “3,000 babies born in Auschwitz”: about 30 of those actually survived. Cite.

Sounds a lot like Andersonville. Helpfully, they even offered an easy way out by way of the Dead Line.

This contributes to the post you quoted and the OP in what way exactly?

It certainly is true that there’s not much distinction in modern people’s minds between the work camps and the death camps. And it turns out that the work camps are much more well known, because some people survived the work camps. Everybody who went to the death camps was murdered as soon as possible. You won’t find memoirs of prisoners who saw the horrors of the death camps. So Dachau and Auschwitz are much more well known than Treblinka and Sobibor. In Dachau you’d only be killed when you were incapable of slave labor. At Treblinka you’d be marched to the gas chambers within hours. At Auschwitz 1.3 million people were sent to the camp, but only 1.1 million died. So hundreds of thousands of people survived Auschwitz.

For the second time, I’m going to have to call “bullshit” on this, since even modern maternity centers that aren’t in warzones and/or concentration camps would have trouble matching a record like this. Where did you get this stat?

There’s that, and there’s also the problem that the Holocaust isn’t a taboo subject. Chen019 wouldn’t be able to climb up on his cross and claim persecution while trying to deny that the Holocaust occurred were he to acknowledge either of these though.

I’d ask if he’d care to try to take a stab at explaining away the Einsatzgruppen and why whey murdered two million people, 1.3 million of them Jews in the wake of the invasion of the Soviet Union but I’m quite sure of how he’d try using the Institute of Historical Review playbook on the matter. That is to claim that the Einsatzgruppen was engaged in anti-partisan activities. They did, but 1) that was in the years after they engaged in mass murder by open air shootings of Jews, Romani, Communists and other ‘undesirables’ that was planned before Barbarossa began, 2) anti-partisan activities on the Eastern Front were scarcely distinguishable from mass murder anyway and 3) On 8 July [1941], Heydrich announced that all Jews were to be regarded as partisans, and gave the order for all male Jews between the ages of 15 and 45 to be shot. It also doesn’t explain why Jewish males outside of that age group along with Jewish women and children were murdered by the Einsatzgruppen. I’m sure that he’d simply ignore the Jager report just as he has Himmler’s own words and for the same reason: there is no way to explain them away.

By adding context, I’m supporting the general agreement on a distinction between death/extermination camps, and other camps.

If you need further help keeping up, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Where the fuck are you getting the notion that I think the Jews brought it upon themselves?

WTF is wrong with you?