Indeed, a latter-day Righteous Among the Nations.
Or at least a not-quite-right-eous. A somewhat wrong-eous.
It’s interesting to me to think about this little girl who is two, who goes to the preschool where I work. Her parents dote on her, and she doesn’t really know from Jewish yet. She has no idea yet that anybody has ever hated her just because of the family she was born into. She has never known anything but love and devotion. Even the gentile kids in the preschool dote on her because she is very petite and cute.
She won’t learn about the Holocaust for eight more years or so, unless her older brother tells her about it.
But even more interesting to me are the gentile kids at our Jewish preschool. When I was very small, one of my first babysitters was a neighbor, who was black, and who took care of me with her grandson who was a little older. Having a black person in my life very early as an authority figure shaped me in a way I am grateful for. I have newer had a problem seeing black people as authority figures, whether it is a teacher, Barack Obama, or a drill sergeant.
Anyway, I wonder what the lasting effect of these little goyisher kids on keeping kosher for Passover, or celebrating Purim and Hanukkah is.
**Of course if you illegally imprison people in camps then you bear responsibility for what happens to them. **
The reason why revisionists point to deaths due to typhus and disease is because there is strong evidence that was the case. It is also the rather mundane explanation for what zyklon was needed for - for small delousing facilities to disenfect clothing and bedding.
To say that this is easily refuted by a cursory glance at the historical record is clearly incorrect. You need to first acknowledge the evidence of mass exterminations in Germany made at Nuremberg which had to be abandoned as unreliable because of pathology evidence.
Yet, we are expected to believe that the same atrocity claims must be reliable in the case of camps in Poland? Even though it is contradicted by British Intelligence, the fact that cyanide testing of the areas where people were supposedly gassed shows negligible levels, the technical implausibility of those areas being used for mass gassing when they had modern disinfestation installations available?
There is also evidence that the claims regarding the numbers in crematoria were also technically impossible. Ivan Lagacé, manager of a large crematory in Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the Auschwitz cremation story is technically impossible. Lagacé stated that this claim was “preposterous” and “beyond the realm of reality.” To claim that 46 retorts could cremate over 4,400 bodies in a day was “ludicrous.” Based on his own experience, Lagacé testified that it would only have been possible to cremate a maximum of 184 bodies a day at Birkenau…Testimony in Toronto District Court, April 5-6, 1988. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), April 14, 1988, p. 6;
There are claims that Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak were killed on arrival. But then you find the Jerusalem Post reporting on a 10 year old jewish boy who joined the choir at Aushwitz:
There also seems to be evidence that, a significant percentage of the Jewish inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jews held in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates — some 21,500, or about 86 percent — were unable to work. (Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document No. 128. Cited in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (Berlin [East]: 1966), p. 264.)
A report dated April 5, 1944, on “security measures in Auschwitz” by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp system, reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom “approximately 15,000 are unable to work.” Nuremberg document NO-021. Nuremberg Military Tribunal (NMT) “green series,” Vol. 5. pp. 384-385;
It also seems strange that there are witnesses like Marika Frank, who arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary in July 1944, when thousands were supposedly gassed and cremated daily. She testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of gas chambers during the time she was interned there. She heard the gassing stories only later. I noted above the evidence of Maria Vanherwaarden, who was there from 1942-1945. The causes of death she witnessed were due to disease.
The reason for noting the claims about death camps in Germany is because it goes to the heart of the problem (aside from the forensic evidence mentioned above) - the evidence regarding atrocities presented at Nuremberg was clearly unreliable. If Rassinier hadn’t spoken out, and there wasn’t such strong medical evidence from the likes of Drs Larson & Gordon, would the claims about mass extermination in camps like Dachau & Buchenwald have been retracted? And as I noted earlier it seems that now the claims about mass gassing at Auschwitz are being amended to mainly being in “farmhouses” outside the camp.
Chen019, are you ever going to ignore the recorded words of Heinrich Himmler in which he explains the need to exterminate Jewish men, women, and children?
How can you ask that, when he ignores those words in the two posts immediately preceding yours?
Oops.
To restate without my brain fart:
Chen019, are you ever going to address the recorded words of Heinrich Himmler in which he explains the need to exterminate Jewish men, women, and children?
Of course he won’t, not in any meaningful way:
If Himmler said these words, it’s proof that the Zionists doctored his record, which just further shows that they invented the whole thing.
I first encountered the Strange Loop idea decades ago. The heart of it, AIUI, is this: a conspiracy massive enough to manufacture a mountain of fake evidence is more than large enough to manufacture the molehill of evidence that you believe uncovers the conspiracy; once you believe in such a powerful conspiracy, there’s nothing you can trust.
The question becomes, then, what the conspiracy is REALLY up to. If you cannot believe the thousands of eyewitness accounts of the Holocaust’s atrocities, why can you believe the handful of accounts that seem to cast doubt on it? Wouldn’t it be easier for the Shadowy Conspiracy to have manufactured those, for an unknown motive you’ve not yet uncovered?
I have no intention of countering every assertion that Chen019 has made, simply because I don’t have much patience with Holocaust denial. However, just as an example of the ease with which such assertions can be refuted, I went in search of more information about one of them. I chose this one since he/she seems fixated on this quotation:
This survivor, identified elsewhere as Otto Dov Kulka, was not a member of a typical transport. He was one of 5000 prisoners (including 285 children) transferred from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz. The children were kept alive for six months, rehearsing for a concert that was supposed to be performed for Red Cross observers. In the event, the Red Cross never made its planned visit. And all of those children were sent to the gas chambers, with the exception of this one survivor. As they waited to be murdered, the children sang.
Source for this information: Beethoven’s Ninth: A Political History, by Esteban Buch.
The survivor’s own words confirm the presence of crematoriums and gas chambers, the selections of prisoners at the railway platform. Here is part of his statement:
He also writes:
His full statement appears here:
https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1P3-1538767891/singing-the-ode-to-joy-in-auschwitz-a-ten-year-old-s
So there you have it. It took me about five minutes to find that information. And every outlandish claim made by Holocaust deniers can be refuted in a similar fashion. Every. Single. One.
in response to the Holocaust Denial we’ve seen in this thread, I have begun reading Auschwitz: A Doctor’s Story
written by Lucie Adelsberger. She was a doctor in Berlin until 1943 when she was sent to Auschwitz.
it’s heartbreaking, of course. She had been offered a position at Harvard in 1933 but did not take it because she was unable to get a visa for her mother and wasn’t willing to leave her behind.
as the OP pretends, I don’t understand Holocaust denial. :mad:
Not sure why I’m bothering to respond, but: Lagace’s numbers are incorrect and rely upon flawed assumptions. For one, he assumed a long cool-down period was required before opening the oven, and he apparently based his numbers upon modern crematory practice and regulations, which include incinerating a coffin and avoiding commingling of ashes. The Topf ovens installed at Auschwitz were coal-fired and were not cooled down prior to inserting a new body; in fact, the instructions were to maintain an even heat to prolong the life of the oven.
Getting into the vile facts a bit: a body would be slid into the oven resting on a metal grate. Most of the burning would occur within the first 30 minutes, after which what was left was a small amount of material that added up to something “roughly the size of a rugby football.” This would fall through the grating into the ash channel below, where it could continue to burn for the final 20 minutes or so before collection. Meanwhile, another body could be introduced into the oven’s upper chamber. So, rather than requiring 4+ hours as Lagace envisioned, cremations at Auschwitz took 25-30 minutes. Kurt Prüfer, the Topf engineer who built the ovens installed at Auschwitz, wrote that five triple-muffle furnaces (15 ovens) could incinerate 800 bodies in 24 hours, or about 53 per oven per day. A bit higher than your low-ball number, not even taking into account the loading of multiple bodies at once. Cite for all this.
So I ask again: why did they need to install enough ovens to incinerate the entire population of the camp in a week?
Some of it was unreliable. There is a far larger body of reliable evidence that a program of systematic extermination was underway.
And of course Nurenberg was itself ad hoc, victors theatre justice dressed up with faux gravitas - effectively military tribunals with crimes created after the fact, and with random evidential standards.
Interesting enough, but not to be confused with conventional legal proceedings.
Well there you go. Clearly, the Holocaust never happened then. You’ve got us.
I already asked you to share some of your knowledge of the Holocaust. I shared some of mine.
I ask again: What do you have to bring to this discussion regarding facts?
Dismissive hand-waving is insufficient.
I’m sorry, I don’t recall you. Perhaps your dismissive, judgemental style was evidenced in your earlier post and I chose to ignore it - I can’t be bothered to look back. Talking of which, the facts I bring in my most recent post is that the evidential standard at the quoted Nurenberg tribunals should not be confused with mainstream criminal proceedings.
Quoted for the extraordinary arrogance.
How about a straight forward question then, do you hold that the holocaust–The murder of approximately six million Jews–happened? yes or no?
Okay. But bear in mind I work with big data.
I tend to lean to the view it’s not possible to offer more than a very broad ballpark figure for most minority populations during that period largely because undocumented refugee flows were so great in the mid-late 1930s, adherence to central Reich policy varied enormously across occupied countries and also because, in relation specifically to Jews, quite literally no one knows what the Soviets did post 1941. There is an awful lot of unaviodable guesswork.
We do know, for example, that 25% or so of German Jews fled the country before 1938, though mostly not to the USA. This from a conference organised by the often characterised anti-semite French:
Ra-ra, USA.