I figured out a scam. Tell me if I'm wrong

I’m pretty sure I caught on to a scam before I gave them thousands of dollars. There’s an an outfit called artstorefront dot com that appealed to artists (I’m a painter) who don’t like handing the business side of their work, as few artists will–the self-promotion, the coping with galleries, the dealing with potential customers. I saw an ad they were running on Facebook, decided to click, and I was briefly intrigued. So I signed up for an hourlong Zoom presentation, and learned that they had several artists making a healthy 5 figures, for which artstorefront wanted only a low four figure one-time fee, a small monthly fee, and a tiny commission, which seemed reasonable UNTIL

I realized that the business plan didn’t make any sense tor the artist but it did make a lot of sense for the company . By taking only a tiny commission (5-10%, depending on how much you paid in in the low four figure one-time fee) they were expressing very little confidence that you’d be able to sell much art. I have very little business sense, so I’m quite proud that I was able to figure this out: If they took a larger commission (it’s not at all out of line for a legit gallery to take 50% of the selling price of a piece of art) but a much lower initial fee and monthly fee, they’d make a lot of money if you sold your work, a good deal more than the few thousand dollars they were asking for the initial fee and monthly fee.

Illustration: in model #1, theirs, I’d pay say $3000 upfront to join, plus $60 per month, and they’d get a 5% commission on each work sold. They were assuring me that some artists earned close to $100,000 annually, so off that figure they’d make about 9 grand the first year, and about 6 grand every year after. `(3000 + 720 + 5000, and then 0 + 720 + 5000).

If they did it the other way, model #2, mine, off even a small fraction of total sales, let’s say $20,000, they’d make much more: in the first year, they’d charge a much smaller initial fee, say $1000, and a much smaller monthly fee, say an annual total of $100, but a much larger commission, like half, which would be $10,000, making 11,100 the first year, and 10,100 every year afterwards.

So why structure it their way? Easy answer is that no one earns anything like $100,000, but as long as they get their $3000 initial fee they’re happy.

This isn’t really a pure scam–they seem to actually provide the services they claim (teaching you how to improve your media presence, handling sales and shipping, showing you how to build a client base) the difference being that most people’s art doesn’t sell, so they don’t need to do the things they claim they do. It’s a scam because naive artists will say “No need to spend hours on the distasteful part of being a artist? Cool. I’ll invest a few grand in that.” Their victims, in other words, are willing victims, so it’s probably legal, and a rare artist might even actually make money. I wonder how many of the people making testimonials for them on the amounts they’ve earned are real.

Another tip-off for me btw was the non-existent bar for signing up–they didn’t screen to see if you knew what you were doing. They did ask to be directed to a website or to be sent an attachment showing your artwork, but here’s the thing: I got an almost instantaneous response praising my artwork (in the most generic terms) to the heavens, If I were interested in helping them, I’d advise them to lay off the rapturous praise which only raised my hackles. At this point, I’m mildly pissed that I allowed them to waste an hour of my time figuring out`that it was a scam, though I’m rather proud that I did figure it out.

Is there a referral bonus too if you bring more artists in? They’re already half set up to be a MLM, I’d be surprised if they don’t go the distance…

Didn’t get that far into it. What’s MLM?

Also, your analysis seems fair. Like you said, it’s probably not an outright scam, just a business model that preys on unsuspecting hopefuls. It’s free money for them, on a subscription no less, in exchange for a few video lessons and a website. You can probably get similar educational materials and web hosting for like $50/mo without the upfront cost and long term subscription.

MLM is a multi level marketing scheme, where each layer of customers / victims are incentivized to recruit more people under them for a small commission. Multi-level marketing - Wikipedia

They’re not outright scams either, but similarly unlikely to make any real money for the participants. Those at the top get rich, those at the bottom get nothing, those in the middle still make nothing, but are strung along by blind hope.

Multi Level Marketing- Amway etc.

I agree that is shady at best.

Ninja’d!

almost every business is trying to get clients to “:subscribe”. In other words they don’t care if you buy a product or not they simply want everyone to send them $9.95 each every month. Even tax exempt outfits like PBS and such simply want a CC and a donation of $10 or $20 a month.

A subscription isn’t in and of itself a scam, especially when there are actual ongoing costs for the business (like providing a storefront and email services for the artist, and also producing educational videos on marketing). $60/mo is high for that, but not outrageously so.

But then add a $3000 “joining fee” AND a 5% commission? Definitely a ripoff.


Reddit doesn’t seem too happy with them either: Reddit - Dive into anything (except one fake shill account who has only ever posted that one positive message).

On the other hand, while they do have a referral program, it’s not multi level and not exploitative… so at least it’s not a MLM. That’s still not to say it’s a good value.

If you want to learn online marketing, pay $30 or so a month for LinkedIn Learning, Coursera, etc. If you want a storefront, pay Wix or Squarespace another $20/mo or list it on Etsy.

That’s your first clue.

This.

From my perspective, it seems like they are charging a lot of money for things you could get much cheaper somewhere else. There are a lot of companies that do this. OTTOMH there are a few companies offering to help patent ‘your invention’. All the services they mention in those ads can be done by any person free of charge.

Sounds like the painter’s version of a vanity press.

Or InventHelp for starving artists.

Counter-anecdotal data: They have great reviews on Trustpilot: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/artstorefronts.com

In my experience, Trustpilot isn’t wholly reliable or unreliable, but somewhere in the middle. It’s likely some of those reviews are incentivized or paid. But there also aren’t many negative ones (and truly terrible sites will often have many). If you filter it to show only 1 to 3 star reviews, there are some helpful anecdotes in there.

Also, psychologically, it’s probably hard to get people who already sunk $4000 into a storefront to leave a negative review. They’d probably try to rationalize their way out of it to avoid further cognitive dissonance…

Agreed. Not a scam per se, but rather one that takes advantage of people thinking their art career will go to the moon if only they got a little help.

I guess in that sense it’s not really that different from any other company in the “creator economy”, whether that’s YouTube or Twitch or Spotify or Onlyfans…

A few famous superstars get rich, but most creators only get pennies, if they get any views at all. But at least in those cases, the sites typically function on a commission model and don’t require an upfront payment from you.

We live in an era where people are overwhelmed by the amount of available entertainment and art, and it’s incredibly difficult for unknown newcomers to float to the top. Still, I suppose enough do every year that the dream lives on…

I don’t envy them. What a tough livelihood :cry:

More and more, things remind me of the mini series Alien- Music Of The Spears. Non spoiler- A man who may be the last professional human musician on an earth where music is composed by AI’s and played by droids wants an alien so he can record the sounds it makes. Dark Horse did some wonderful things with the Alien rights. This is one of them. It is both a fascinating dystopian scifi story and an allegory on the state of the modern entertainment industry. It seems rather prescient now. It came out in the 90’s.

Alien and Dark Horse, as in xenomorphs (Sigourney Weaver)?! That sounds awesome. I never realized they branched out beyond “trapped in space with killer monsters” plotlines.

Yes! Dark Horse did some really wonderful creative things with the Terminator, Robo Cop, Alien and Predator rights. My favorite is from the Alien 25th Year Anniversary one shot. Non Spoiler- On a distant planet where humans are building a settlement, a group of cultist who believe Lovecraft was a prophet and Cthulhu is real find a temple dedicated to the aliens. They believe it is the tomb of Cthulhu. Things proceed from there.

ETA

While Music Of The Spears was relevant, further discussion of Dark Horse, Alien and other properties is not. If there is interest, I can start a new thread in Cafe Society on those topics.

My brother works in Hollywood (he’s a CGI tech) and knows a lot of actors. He says that while very few people become stars, a lot of people do manage to make a living acting, without having a day job (or doing porn).

He says that appearing in a weekly show, or national commercial pays anywhere from $1-2,500, if it’s a speaking role. If it’s a major supporting role on a TV show, it pays a LOT more, as long as the actor is a member of SAG.

Living actually in Hollywood is horrifically expensive, and some actors try it, in order to be available “at a moment’s notice,” but most live some place cheaper, and 3-4 jobs a month, with a major role on a TV show a few times a year is a comfortable middle class living.

He told me this before COVID, so it may have changed, but I imagine that while the details are different, the fact that there are lots of people making a living acting without being stars is still the case.

I think there are a lot of such scams around.
As a musician and songwriter with some material available on YouTube etc, I get emails fairly regularly offering to ‘promote’ my work. No thanks.

An upfront fee of several thousand dollars is ridiculous, as is a monthly fee.
I’d be willing to bet that most of the ‘testimonials’ are written by shills.

Well avoided, I’d say.