I got a speeding ticket in the mail yesterday.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
41

[QUOTE=Gfactor]
Kevin Shannon, NOTE: SPEEDING TOWARDS DISASTER: HOW CLEVELAND’S TRAFFIC CAMERAS VIOLATE THE OHIO CONSTITUTION, 55 Clev. St. L. Rev. 607 (2007)

This suggests a possible defense:

Virginia DOT Study Shows Cameras Increase Injury Accidents

Here is the report they are talking about: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/05-vdot.pdf

I haven’t reviewed the claims made in the report; nor have I checked to see if the law has been amended, but it’s a start.

ETA: The report deals with red light cameras, and the “fatal flaw” is tied to that particular statute. I don’t know if any of that stuff applies to photo radar, or even if it still applies to red light cameras.
[/QUOTE]

Whoa, thanks for the info!

42

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
Whoa, thanks for the info!
[/QUOTE]

A quick glance at the dates puts this at more than 3.5 years old. The law may have been amended to allow mailed summonses. That report describes a loophole that reduces the effectiveness of the program - loopholes that affect incoming revenue are often swiftly closed.

43

My problem with photo radar is that everything depends on it being right, and there is no way of knowing if it is.

When you are stopped by a real cop, you at least know then if you were doing what he says. When you get a ticket in the mail, chances are you don’t even remember if you were doing what they claimed.

One time I was driving on a country road and meet a cop coming the other way. I looked down at my speed, and was glad to see that I was doing 55 on the nose. I was surprised, then, when he quickly turned and came after me. When he pulled me over he said he clocked be at 76 mph. I swore that wasn’t true, I was only doing 55. He said maybe my speedometer was faulty, but I still should know the difference between 55 and 76. I said I did know, and there was no way on earth I was going 76. He eventually believed me, and did not write a ticket.

If that had been a photo radar setup, I would have been SOL.

How many people claiming the OP should just suck it up and pay think photo radar never makes mistakes? Radar is by no means a foolproof technology, but those things treat it like it is.

44

[QUOTE=Library Boy]
My problem with photo radar is that everything depends on it being right, and there is no way of knowing if it is.

When you are stopped by a real cop, you at least know then if you were doing what he says. When you get a ticket in the mail, chances are you don’t even remember if you were doing what they claimed.

One time I was driving on a country road and meet a cop coming the other way. I looked down at my speed, and was glad to see that I was doing 55 on the nose. I was surprised, then, when he quickly turned and came after me. When he pulled me over he said he clocked be at 76 mph. I swore that wasn’t true, I was only doing 55. He said maybe my speedometer was faulty, but I still should know the difference between 55 and 76. I said I did know, and there was no way on earth I was going 76. He eventually believed me, and did not write a ticket.

If that had been a photo radar setup, I would have been SOL.

How many people claiming the OP should just suck it up and pay think photo radar never makes mistakes? Radar is by no means a foolproof technology, but those things treat it like it is.
[/QUOTE]

Of course it isn’t foolproof, but which is more likely? Is it more likely that in his driving-in-an-unfamiliar-place-while-rubbernecking-in-a-25-mile-an-hour-zone state that he was over the speed limit, or that the machine doesn’t work? I get what you’re saying, but one seems more obvious than the other to me.

Also, I realize some people may claim “It’s the principle!” but $40 isn’t worth the time I’d spend fighting it. Hell, it isn’t worth the time he’s spent here arguing it. YMMV.

45

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
Of course it isn’t foolproof, but which is more likely? Is it more likely that in his driving-in-an-unfamiliar-place-while-rubbernecking-in-a-25-mile-an-hour-zone state that he was over the speed limit, or that the machine doesn’t work? I get what you’re saying, but one seems more obvious than the other to me.

Also, I realize some people may claim “It’s the principle!” but $40 isn’t worth the time I’d spend fighting it. Hell, it isn’t worth the time he’s spent here arguing it. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

Are you a cop?

46

I’ve had 3 or 4 speeding tickets in my youth. Each time I was going exactly how fast I was accused of. The last thing on my mind was “Woe is me. How do I get out of this?” I sucked it up and paid the fines. Frankly I’m tired of the whole mentality of trying to get out of things. I’m tired of parents trying to get their kids out of things. I’m tired of lawyers looking for loop holes to get clients out of things. Maybe I’m just a grouchy middle-aged guy now, but so be it. You do the crime, you do the time. Suck it up. I tell my kids the same thing. They’re responsible for their own actions and if they do something wrong they’re responsible for making it right again, not me.

Get off my lawn, while you’re at it.

47

[QUOTE=Leaffan]
I’ve had 3 or 4 speeding tickets in my youth. Each time I was going exactly how fast I was accused of. The last thing on my mind was “Woe is me. How do I get out of this?” I sucked it up and paid the fines. Frankly I’m tired of the whole mentality of trying to get out of things. I’m tired of parents trying to get their kids out of things. I’m tired of lawyers looking for loop holes to get clients out of things. Maybe I’m just a grouchy middle-aged guy now, but so be it. You do the crime, you do the time. Suck it up. I tell my kids the same thing. They’re responsible for their own actions and if they do something wrong they’re responsible for making it right again, not me.

Get off my lawn, while you’re at it.
[/QUOTE]

So if a machine says you did something wrong, you always believe it and accept the consequences? Never fight billing errors or anything else a machine is involved in?

Glad that works for you. Me, I like to know if I did indeed do what the machine says I did.

48

[QUOTE=Leaffan]
I’ve had 3 or 4 speeding tickets in my youth. Each time I was going exactly how fast I was accused of. The last thing on my mind was “Woe is me. How do I get out of this?” I sucked it up and paid the fines. Frankly I’m tired of the whole mentality of trying to get out of things. I’m tired of parents trying to get their kids out of things. I’m tired of lawyers looking for loop holes to get clients out of things. Maybe I’m just a grouchy middle-aged guy now, but so be it. You do the crime, you do the time. Suck it up. I tell my kids the same thing. They’re responsible for their own actions and if they do something wrong they’re responsible for making it right again, not me.

Get off my lawn, while you’re at it.
[/QUOTE]

You’re middle aged and beaten down by life. Don’t visit that upon me.

If a cop gets behind you and flashes his blues, what’s the first thing you do? That’s right, you look at your speedometer. If that happened to me on that day and the cop told me I was going 40 (and I saw that I was), I’d be less pissed. But now I’m accused of something to which I’ve already been proven guilty – by an imperfect machine no less – and I don’t have any recourse.

I can’t believe how such a simple issue is lost on so many people.

“Just pay it.” People who are saying this are either being deliberately obtuse, exhibiting signs like Leaffan here, or are just generally stupid. Either way, save it.

49

[QUOTE=Library Boy]
So if a machine says you did something wrong, you always believe it and accept the consequences? Never fight billing errors or anything else a machine is involved in?

Glad that works for you. Me, I like to know if I did indeed do what the machine says I did.
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No, they fight nothing. That’s what good patriotic citizens do.

50

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
You’re middle aged and beaten down by life. Don’t visit that upon me.

If a cop gets behind you and flashes his blues, what’s the first thing you do? That’s right, you look at your speedometer. If that happened to me on that day and the cop told me I was going 40 (and I saw that I was), I’d be less pissed. But now I’m accused of something to which I’ve already been proven guilty – by an imperfect machine no less – and I don’t have any recourse.

I can’t believe how such a simple issue is lost on so many people.

“Just pay it.” People who are saying this are either being deliberately obtuse, exhibiting signs like Leaffan here, or are just generally stupid. Either way, save it.
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There are two options here: either you’re wrong, or the machine is wrong. Perhaps the machine is in fact wrong. In that case go to court and argue the fact: request calibration records, have someone else drive past the box at 25 MPH and see what happens, hire a lawyer, hire a private investigator, do your own due diligence. Or admit you were speeding and pay the fine. I’m middle-aged and realistic about life! I got caught for all kinds of shit as a kid! The one thing I have learned though is that taking responsibility for your actions is the right thing to do every time. Obviously YMMV.

Peace. I don’t mean any harm here.

51

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
Of course it isn’t foolproof, but which is more likely? Is it more likely that in his driving-in-an-unfamiliar-place-while-rubbernecking-in-a-25-mile-an-hour-zone state that he was over the speed limit, or that the machine doesn’t work? I get what you’re saying, but one seems more obvious than the other to me.

Also, I realize some people may claim “It’s the principle!” but $40 isn’t worth the time I’d spend fighting it. Hell, it isn’t worth the time he’s spent here arguing it. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the state will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant…

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the state will prove that it is likely that the defendant…

I dunno, it doesn’t have the same ring.

52

[QUOTE=Library Boy]
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the state will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant…

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the state will prove that it is likely that the defendant…

I dunno, it doesn’t have the same ring.
[/QUOTE]

Well, Library Boy , you and Excuse Boy (the OP who is STILL at it with the excuses and hostility to anyone who disagrees) can go to court together hand in hand to fight this out. When he ends up paying the fine, court costs, and lawyer fees do us a favor and take a picture of the check and post it up on here so we can see how much a $40 ticket ends up costing.

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
You’re middle aged and beaten down by life. Don’t visit that upon me.

If a cop gets behind you and flashes his blues, what’s the first thing you do? That’s right, you look at your speedometer. If that happened to me on that day and the cop told me I was going 40 (and I saw that I was), I’d be less pissed. But now I’m accused of something to which I’ve already been proven guilty – by an imperfect machine no less – and I don’t have any recourse.

I can’t believe how such a simple issue is lost on so many people.

“Just pay it.” People who are saying this are either being deliberately obtuse, exhibiting signs like Leaffan here, or are just generally stupid. Either way, save it.
[/QUOTE]

He’s middle-aged and beaten down by life, I must certainly be a cop, someone else has reading comprehension problems, somebody else is just snarky, if we don’t agree we’re obtuse or stupid, etc etc. You have a reason and excuse for everything. I know you think your insulting responses are witty and clever, but they’re transparent and sad. Along with your excuses (rubbernecking! small town speed trap! dumb machine! big brother!) and your silly ideas (I’ll mail a picture of my speedometer! it’s the town’s fault so they won’t get my business anymore!) you’re coming off as a petulant teenager who needs to learn to take responsibility for his actions. Pay it or fight it. Either way, grow up and stay off Leaffan 's lawn.

53

[QUOTE=Library Boy]
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the state will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant…

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the state will prove that it is likely that the defendant…

I dunno, it doesn’t have the same ring.
[/QUOTE]

Speeding is a civil infraction in Virginia–not a crime. Hence the burden of proof is not “beyond a reasonble doubt,” but to a preponderance of the evidence. The standard verbal formula for the preponderance standard is–

More likely than not.

And you don’t get a jury trial for speeding either.

54

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
Pay it or fight it.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your contribution to the thread. You may continue happily paying bills and fines without considering that they may be made in error, because that’s what you’re supposed to do as an “adult.” I, however, choose to be skeptical and question things as they’re presented to me, especially those that affect my life directly. It’s gotten me a long way so far, so I’ll continue.

My mileage apparently does vary.

55

[QUOTE=Gfactor]
Speeding is a civil infraction in Virginia–not a crime. Hence the burden of proof is not “beyond a reasonble doubt,” but to a preponderance of the evidence. The standard verbal formula for the preponderance standard is–

More likely than not.

And you don’t get a jury trial for speeding either.
[/QUOTE]

The funny thing is that if I choose to challenge the ticket, it will never cost me more than $40.

It is a tad frustrating though that I don’t have a chance in winning, even if I’m 100% certain that I wasn’t going 40 MPH.

56

They could probably also send you a new ticket, for distracted driving. Just how well do you think you can drive, while you’re taking pictures of the dashboard?

57

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
The funny thing is that if I choose to challenge the ticket, it will never cost me more than $40.

It is a tad frustrating though that I don’t have a chance in winning, even if I’m 100% certain that I wasn’t going 40 MPH.
[/QUOTE]

This is the first admission, by my reading, that you think you weren’t going 40 mph, also an admission that you were in fact the one driving. You’ve already admitted it was your car in the photo.

You now have four choices:

  1. challenge the accuracy of the machine (I’m sure they’ve seen this before)
  2. challenge the signage of the street (ditto)
  3. challenge the validity of the method (ditto ditto)
  4. pay the dang ticket.

FWIW, I think the first three are serious longshots. Your indignation, and I’m sure the desire to fight the evil system, are hardly unique.

You know, I’ve been pulled over for four different moving violations in my 25 years of driving. In every case, I have to admit that I was doing what they said I was doing. Sometimes you just gotta fess up.

58

[QUOTE=Gfactor]
Speeding is a civil infraction in Virginia–not a crime. Hence the burden of proof is not “beyond a reasonble doubt,” but to a preponderance of the evidence. The standard verbal formula for the preponderance standard is–

More likely than not.

And you don’t get a jury trial for speeding either.
[/QUOTE]

I know. It was kind of a joke.

My point is still that the law is saying that all they have to do to give you a ticket is have a machine say you broke the law, and that machines can make mistakes. While cops can also make mistakes, at least then you have a chance to get your facts in order by noticing your speed, other cars, conditions, etc., and can plead your case. Or knowing that you did it and pay your fine. But when you get mailed a ticket like this, you don’t have that ability. The state has decided that a machine is enough to go by to find you guilty, and I think that bar is a little low.

59

[QUOTE=Belrix]
<snip>

You know, I’ve been pulled over for four different moving violations in my 25 years of driving. In every case, I have to admit that I was doing what they said I was doing. Sometimes you just gotta fess up.
[/QUOTE]

That’s the difference. At this point there is no way he knows if he was guilty or not, so he has to fess up to something he does not know if he did.

60

At least with the red light photos you can see the red light in the picture.

With the speeding ticket, no one will remember if they were guilty or not. Why should we just accept that the machine is correct? What if it wasn’t correct, is there any way of proving that?