And while I, too, avoid leather products to avoid the inevitable “hypocrisy” arguments, I submit again that leather is a by-product, and few animals are raised and slaughtered for their hides alone. Half the world would have to go vegetarian before the demand for leather would outstrip the demand for steak.
Rich
(“Half the world” is, naturally, a WAG.)
Just wondering …
Is yeast an animal or a plant ?
If animal, would unpasteurized beer be more suitable for vegetarians ? Think millions of little lobsters being scalded to death in each bottle.
Oblio
If I could serve you a human that lived a life of total freedom and happines until the instant it was humanely and painlessly killed, would you eat it? If not, why not? What about a golden retriever? Why should the chicken have been killed when I can live a fine life eating delicious foods without killing animals? The only meat I would consider “ok” to eat from a moral standpoint would be animals that died a natural death, and that isn’t very healthy.
–
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure that the social taboo against cannibalism is a bit too strong. That, and isn’t it illegal?
A bus driver I used to talk to every afternoon on the ride home told me a story once about how he visited Korea. He was offered a dish with some sort of meat in it, and basically snarfed it down and asked for more. Only afterward was he told he was eating dog.
He said, and I quote, “That was the best shit I’ve ever eaten in my entire life.” Now all he can think of when he sees someone walking a dog is “mmmm…dinner.”
So yeah, I’d eat a golden retriever, if only to see whether or not the bus driver was full of it.
I didn’t say “never do anything except that which is neccessary” I said I try not to cause HARM except that which is neccessary. You seem to be having a really hard time with this concept.
An asinine reply, since tofu is made from soy, which is a plant. I feel that we have a place on the food chain, I don’t have a problem with that. I try to cause as little harm as I can in my life. This means that I eat as low on the food chain as I can and still live a comfortable life. Some day, this concept will get though your head. You aren’t really arguing that I should give up veggies, you’re arguing that since I eat them, I should also eat meat or I’m a hippocrite. I say that if causing harm to plants means that I should go all out and harm animals too, then why should I draw the line at humans? Do you have any children? Can I kill them?
Neither would murder. So why is it illegal? You know, the planet would go right on living if we ate other humans too. Doesn’t mean we should.
No, what you said was:
“But what I hate are irrational or illogical reasons for becoming a vegatarian.”
and then went on to imply that moral reasons are among these “irrational or illogical” reasons. Why is compassion for animals illogical or irrational to you? Who does it harm? No one. So why should it bother you? Why should you even bring it up?
Another person:
Nope, I don’t. Is this hard for you to believe? I buy my shoes from Pangea - http://www.pangeaveg.com/ and they are totally vegetarian. My watchband is vinyl. I’ve had canvas ones before, too. I also don’t buy feather pillows or down comforters, but in addition, I don’t see how anyone can stand them. Who wants a pillow that flattens out to 1/4 inch thickness and pokes you with needle like things while you sleep?? (my mom has them at her house and they drive me nuts).
Another person totally not comprehending the point about “need”. Nobody is saying “live your life only doing what you need to to survive” we are just saying that causing SUFFERING, PAIN, AND DEATH when there is NO need isn’t something we feel like doing.
Not a problem, I don’t. Thanks for making your little assumptions, though.
another poster: “or use chicken/beef broth in her cooking.”
Just for the record, I don’t, won’t, and won’t eat food at a restaurant if I know it contains broth or lard, etc.
–
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
have to wonder about Phil now, when he replies to being asked if he has any leather good with this little gem:
Where do you get the men that make up your shoees? Creationists who you tangle with?
Belts for the people… Belts ARE the people!!
Opalcat:
I ain’t been in a flame war with you, and I’d just as soon not start now.
However, I would be remiss if I didn’t point something out to you. When it comes to this issue, all of your posts, even your first, has been totally over-the-top and fanatical.
I can almost see the glint in your eyes and crazy, chaotic grin on your face as you type some of the things you typed.
It’s also VERY unlike you to get so defensive and so quickly take the offensive.
Obviously, this issue is important to you. Fine. But please breath in and out and calmly consider something:
Making analogies of human life to animal life is nuts, just as nuts as making arguments comparing plant life and animal life. But one of them you’ve been doing from the get-go, while you lambasted others for the latter comparison.
I do not base my choice of friends based upon their diets. In fact, heatherlee does not eat red meat at all, only chicken. But she respects the fact that I like cow, and has no problems with that. I get the feeling that if you and I were to dine, you would look at me like I was a murderer if I ordered a beef taco.
Eat or don’t eat whetever you want. But you’re coming off like a vegetarian fundamentalist in this thread, and it is attitudes like that which makes many of us carnivores look at the OP and say, “Preach on, brother!”
I agree with Opal & Phil, and they have elaborated on most of the reasons why I’m a long time vegetarian. A good book that details the cruelty of the meat production industry in a well-documented fashion is “Diet For A New America” by John Robbins. It’s eye opening to learn of the suffering of animals, as well as the suffering we are causing ourselves by our current practices.
Some of my own parameters in deciding what, or who, to eat are determined by the differentation of consciousness. That can open a whole big bag o’ debate, but I try not to partake in anything that causes pain to any other creature. Because I have the ability to make that choice, and am lucky enough to live in a country where there is no shortage of food. I try not to take more than what is needed from the plant world, either.
One big exception is that if somebody has cooked a meal for me, I eat whatever they’re serving, without mentioning my usual diet, because that’s rude.
I don’t bludgeon people over the head with my views, nor do I consider them superior from a moral standpoint. To me, it’s how I live my life after a careful consideration of the choices available. I don’t go for the Food Nazi game. As to metroshane’s original irritation, bludgeoning another person in a Holier-than-Thou way is causing suffering, too.
By the way, human teeth are not designed for ripping into flesh. Our “canines” are better suited for fruit. And we don’t have much in the way of claws either. The intestinal tracts of carnivores are much shorter, more suitable for meat, than ours, as well.
What can I say? I like cow. Chicken and fish too. Mmmmm, mmmmm.
Somehow, I get the feeling that lions, crocodlies, or sharks would have no problem breeding us for meat.
You say “cheesy” like that’s a BAD thing.
Satan mentioned:
"Oh, I also hate it when veggies say, “If you had to kill that animal to eat it, I’ll bet you wouldn’t.”
This is the one I love to get from vegetarians, because, yes, I would. I hunt, and have eaten, squirrel, pheasant, deer, and moose. I love meat, venison and moose in particular are much tastier than beef.
Of course, shooting a deer that’s lived fully free all its life while eating farmers’ crops is much worse to the vegans (I haven’t had half as many arguments with regular vegetarians) than it is to slaughter a poorly-treated cow. Then they bring up the point of wounding the animal. That is a question of ethics. The answer is, if you can’t be sure of killing it as quickly and humanely as possible, you don’t take the shot. Responsible hunters kill no more painfully than responsible slaughterers.
So that’s my little piece. I also like veal. But that’s just me.
{entering this discussion gingerly…}
Okay, I’m an omnivore who tends to eat vegetarian a lot of the time because I purely love veggies. I love burgers and a good steak once in a while, and I’ve never met seafood I didn’t love (to eat, that is, sometimes raw). Just to state it up front…
But (standing up to be a great target) I tend to eat vegetarian because it tastes great–but people who get in my face about not being 100% all-the-way mainly inspire me to contrariness and ordering meat I don’t even want.
Okay, stolid, common-sensical midwesterner here, but animals are raised for food. Feed lots exist, slaughterhouses exist, and sloe eyed cattle die to make beef. That’s what they’re called: “beeves”. Responsible farmers care for their animals. It’s both a calling and economic sense. One cow can be a solid grand on the hoof.
And they exist for meat, and the demand for it. Meat does not miraculously “appear” in tidy styrofoam packages. Animals die, blood flows, and minimally paid workers work in unspeakable conditions to prepare “product”.
(A local packing plant is synomymous with the 3rd ring of Hell. Workers w/ power cutters routinely cut themselves, numbed w/ cold, repetition and to meet quotas.)
I’m not saying that any of that is right, but it is FACT. So to say vegetarians are in any way wrong is, IMO, both arrogant and misguided. Forgive my arrogance, but urbanites are consumers of food, not producers. If you don’t know the realities of where your meat comes from–well, ignorance may be bliss–for you–but it isn’t crediblity either.
But to lend balance, if there weren’t the demand for meat, would there BE as many animals? This is not a facile question. How many of you know the acreage requirements to support even one cow? How many of you, right now, are willing to undertake the feeding, care, vet bills, and provide for the offspring of herds of animals?
This isn’t facetious or facile–or at least it isn’t intended to be. Vegetarians who get upset over dairy products or having dogs/cats as pets are (IMO) as misguided as people who blithely pride themselves on
tough/contrarian political affinities for meat are equally deluded.
Okay, now that I’ve pissed off everyone in reading range…well, can’t we approach this with even a titch of rationlity? GREAT food can be totally meat free! Pasta w/ summer tomatoes and fresh herbs, just made a *swooning" soup w/ squash, kale & kalamata olives—it’s GOOD eats and good for ya (see related thread on “how much have you lost”?)
It’s not pretentious or “holier than thou”; it’s great FOOD! (Especially w/ a hearty, comforting grinding of Romano cheese over…)
And for contrarian carnivores…eat, but KNOW what you’re eating. No sanitized, urbanite distance. Eat it: know it.
Oh, mother o’ pearl, I just ranted,
Veb
[rant]
Ya know…I don’t care if people want to live on roots & berries if (a) they like the taste and don’t like meat, or (b) they think it’s healthier, or (c) they don’t like to think of the cute little duckies and bunnies and chickies and moo cows suffering, or even (d) they just do it because they like being eccentric pains in the ass and aggravating other people (nobody like that around here of course). Doesn’t bother me. No problem. I some small ambitions in the field of painintheassiveness myself.
The only thing that really bothers me about the evangelical (or, dast I say it? fundie) vegans is the holier than thou respect for life crap which is, simply, bullshit. Everything you eat, be it a leaf or a grain or a seed or any other kind of underbrush is there for you because some animal died to make it possible.
That virtuous ear of corn was grown in a field where the rodent population and the native herbivores and most of the insects were systematically exterminated to improve crop yields. Your strawberries were grown in plots that were fumigated with poison gas to wipe out all the little wormies and buggies and other microroganisms. Your healthy whole wheat bread grain was grown in fields where the mice were poisoned, the gophers and woodchucks shot and the prairie dogs bulldozed under.
We won’t even get into the mass exterminations of bison, passenger pigeons, antelope etc that made the Great Plains into your bread basket.
Organic farming…oh swell…we won’t use chemicals and pesticides. We’ll just import good buggies to eat the bad buggies and starve to death when they’re through. Poor people can’t afford expensive organically grown vegetables? No problem. Let them eat cake.
Too empathtic with the poor critters to wear leather or put goose down in your pillows? Replace 'em with vinyl and foam made from crude oil and produced in air & water polluting petrochemical plants and toss 'em into a landfill when you’re done so they can leach toxic goop into the ground water for the next thousand years. Cotton is virtuous of course…if you don’t count the ton of pesticides and chemical fertilizers that got dumped on the cotton field to make the fiber harvest economically feasible.
Want to dress up in burlap tuxedos and bamboo shoes? Fine by me. Want to live on tubers, fungi and dandelion leaves? No problem. But spare me the sermonette from the First Church of the Politically Correct and Our Lady of the Cute Critters.
[/rant]
So…who’s up for a steak and a beer? 
JB
Lex Non Favet Delictorum Votis
I have always made it a point never to eat people from Vega (or Alpha Centauri or anywhere else).
This has got to be the most sick and disgusting thing I’ve ever read out here. Hey moderators? Are you there? What about that jerk rule?
If that’s the most sick and disgusting thing you’re read you can’t have been here for very long.
So that makes it OK with you?
What is the logic behind vegi-burgers? Why would a person who hates the very thought of eating meat want to eat something that is supposed to look like and taste like meat?
Really! Excellent point Slythe! Is it because they just want to fit in at cookouts?
Just a guess, but I think I can guess who Fantastic User used to be . . .
Fantastic User, I think you completely missed the point behind the statement that offended you so much. It was as hypothetical question - it was not meant in any way to be taken seriously. I think that is obvious in the full context of this thread.
I have read this whole thread, and I am now tired.
The thing I want to know is, why the HELL did you ask the vegetarian why they were veggie? What possessed you? Why do you care?
I understand that there are these “food nazis” out there that are total nags and take every opportunity to preach. They will go out of their way to approach you and tell you how evil you are for eating meat. How bloody useless of them (in my opinion.) I doubt they have “converted” one person to veggie with those annoying tactics.
But you asked someone? You wanted to know more about their vegetarianism? Sheesh. Why? The answer they give usually distresses you. I wonder why you care, anyway. Why would someone else’s eating habits bother you so? Even if they think they are “superior” to you, so what?
Yes, in case you hadn’t guessed, I am veggie. I maybe preached (a little) the first year of my vegginess, and then it got old. Now, I don’t say anything unless I am forced to. I tell you, almost without exception, I get all sorts of questions, (mostly rudem annoying or tiresome) from people regarding my vegetarianism.
I just want to be left alone with my own personal eating habits, but nooooo… Some moron has to ask me questions, argue with me, offer up the exciting comment “Oh, I LOVE red meat.” (Yawn. I know a lot of people eat red meat. That’s what those packages of meat are for in the grocery store. I have seen people eat meat before. I used to eat meat when I was younger. I will not swoon at the sight of it.) Give up all these tired, lame attempts to offend or upset me.
Oh my, if I had a nickle for every time someone told me how much they LOVE red meat… Or when they wave meat in front of my face, or pretend to “feed” it to me. Or argue with me with the old and lame “plants have feelings too” line. Sigh. (FYI: Plants have feelings, fine. You need to feed A LOT of plants to an animal, then kill the animal to eat it. A LOT of plants die in order to feed an animal that is to be slaughtered, and then you eat the animal. I prefer to just eat the plant - saves a lot of resources, and a helluva lot of plants.)
I see a lot of people here who are just plain bugged by vegetarianism. I don’t care if you are bugged. Be bugged. Just leave us alone. Don’t ask us why we are vegetarians! If you encounter some preachy veggie who wants to annoy you, go at it, argue with them. But when you ASK THEM first, what do you expect? And, why do you care if their reasons are nutty? What are they taking away from you? They are leaving all the good cuts of meat for you, aren’t they? What’s your beef? (Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. :))
When someone asks me why I am veggie, I usually say because I never was a big fan of meat anyway, & I feel it is easier to not eat it, and I don’t like the idea of eating animals. I shrug my shoulders and act slightly bored. Some people accept this and move on, others want to argue with me, rationalize their own eating habits (I DIDN’T ASK about their eating habits, and I made no real or implied judgments on their eating habits.) It is the same thing, over and over again. It is getting really old.
Please, when you encounter your next vegetarian, DON’T ASK THEM ANYTHING ABOUT IT. The next vegetarian you meet may be me, and I’d sure appreciate not being asked.
(Of course, if they want to preach to you first, then the ball’s in your court - argue away, I don’t care.)