From the website CalifBoomer gave a link to:
And exactly how does Mormonism differ from this worldview, Boomer?
Again, what “fundamental” world view are the Latter-day Saints missing that makes them (supposedly) non-Christian?
And I rest my case, that some religions define “Christianity” according to their own definitions, and anything not meeting their EXACT criteria is “obviously” not Christian.
Yes, I do think that Christians who are most knowledgeable about their faith are often the people who are most likely to confront Mormons, etc. about their faiths. Note: I said knowledgeable about their faiths, not knowledgeable about how to persuade other people or about how to treat other people with respect. The problem is that these people are clueless about how life works.
Consider the following analogy: Suppose there’s a Straight Doper who is educated in the ways of Cecil Adams. He’s memorized all his books, as well as the books of Jan Harold Brunvald. He’s kept up with all the current columns. He checks snopes.com every week to see if there’s any new urban legends being debunked there. He’s a veritable fountain of information about all sorts of general knowledge. Despite this, he’s terrible at explaining to people why the things they believe are wrong. He’s constantly implying that anyone who passes on urban legends is a complete idiot, scarcely deserving of his patronizing explanations. He makes sure that these people aren’t just informed of their mistakes but are humiliated. He has no idea when to walk away from someone who doesn’t want to be educated in the ways of Cecil Adams and insists on continuing all the arguments to the point of a fistfight. Such a person is a terrible representative of the Straight Dope faith, despite all their knowledge.
No, real Christians are not just people who “do good things” or who “believe in and recognize Christ”, certainly not if they also believe in the sort of heretical doctrines that Mormons believe in. You may not agree with this definition, and it’s certainly your right to call yourself a Christian if you feel like it, but that’s not the definition that most knowledgeable Christians accept. Right belief is not all of Christianity, but it’s part of it.
To use another Straight Dope analogy, the fact that someone sincerely and honestly believes in urban legends does not make them right. It does not give anyone the right to be obnoxious to them, but it also does not make them right. This is something I can’t say enough times: The fact that you are wrong about something doesn’t give anyone the right to act rudely to you, but it also doesn’t change the fact that you are wrong.
Yes, the most knowledgeable Christians think that Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and Unitarians are heretics, while Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and all varieties of Protestants are fellow Christian with some variant beliefs. The more knowledgeable they are, the less likely they are to be the sort that accuse members of other orthodox denominations of “not really being Christians”. Most of those who do make such accusations are not only not knowledgeable but are actually using denominational rivalries (and religious rivalries) as a substitute for what are really ethnic rivalries.
Asmodean, I hope you were joking in your post. If you were, go ahead and whoosh me. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT HERETICS DESERVE TO BURN. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT HERETICS DESERVE TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT HERETICS DESERVE TO BE TREATED RUDELY. I’m not even saying that heretics will burn in hell. I think it’s arrogant of anyone to claim to know what God will do with any particular person.
I sat next to a Mormon at work for over a year, and I got along with him. There are some Unitarians in a book group I’ve belonged to for years, and I get along with them. One Christmas vacation in grad school I stayed with an aunt who was a Jehovah’s Witness, and I got along with her. I would never start an argument about religion with any of them unless they initiated it.
The biggest difference between LDS and Christianity is that the Mormons believe that man is a perfectable creature; that through good works a man might become a god (as man now is, god once was; as god is now, man may become – LDS doctrine). Christians believe that humankind is fallen and sinful and that only through the grace of Christ can we ever be reconciled to God. These two beliefs are black and white, totally irreconcilable. Either man is god in embryo or man is totally corrupt and in dire need of God’s grace. It is enough of a difference to mean that Mormonism and Christianity are completely different religions and not just different denominations. The fact that LDS uses the name of Jesus on their letterhead does not mean that they have a clear understanding of his nature. That said, no Christian should EVER confront a Mormon with a smug or arrogant attitude; we should humbly offer them the love and forgiveness that is only available in a clear understanding of the nature of Christ.
WhizBang said it better than I ever could:
<<<<That said, no Christian should EVER confront a Mormon with a smug or arrogant attitude; we should humbly offer them the love and forgiveness that is only available in a clear understanding of the nature of Christ.>>>>
There is no substitution for the ability to listen to another person and accept what they say, and be able to discourse in a knowledgeable way about their beliefs.
It doesn’t sound like the Christians you’ve encountered have done this, but, there are crude, rude and hateful people everywhere and in all kinds of faiths. You’re absolutely right, if you have a genuine faith, you can tell that about a person without becoming a baseball bat to hit them in the head with, which doesn’t work, anyway.
Judy
“I never saw so many words compressed into so small an idea.” Abraham Lincoln
WhizBang, Mormons most assuredly do not believe that by their good works alone they can become as God is. The grace of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can save us, after all we can do. All mankind would be damned to hell forever if it were not for the grace and Atonement of Christ, regardless of how many good works we did.
Here’s a link that explains the LDS view of grace vs. works:
Thank you Flinx for making the points so I don’t have to. I appreciate it. It’s interesting to read from some people what I supposedly believe when it’s very different then what I truly do believe. That is the major problem I think between the religions. People get a general understanding, and think they know the entire doctrane. Most people from all religions do this to each other. I would never think of posting a remark on what Jews or Catholics believe because I just have a vague understanding, likewise, people shouldn’t do the same without researching a little. I think many hurtful comments could be avoided if ignorant people could do some impartial research on topics such as religion. I think the only way to fight intolerance is with knowledge, and I hope that people will learn what they are talking about before they rush to rash and often harsh judgements.
“Everybody’s got something to hide except for me and my monkey”-The Beatles
Pepperlandgirl, I know, isn’t it completely mind-boggling what some people believe Mormons believe? I have one piece of advice for you: never, never, never go to the Left Behind Message Board and try to talk about the LDS church. They will tell you exactly what you believe and why it’s totally wrong, regardless of what you actually believe!
Amazing.
Thanks for the advise, I will keep that in mind. 
I saw a great sig line, and I wish I remember who has it. Sorry I can’t, please forgive me! “If all you christians were more like your Christ this world will be a better place.” Ghandi.
I think that is a great quote that everybody should live by.
Who are we to decide who is right and wrong? No one can say with 100% accuracy that their religion is right. We won’t know until the day we die. Therefore no one has the right to put down any religion saying that they are wrong in what they believe. It’s just that-a belief. We will all know one day if we are “right”. So instead of acting very petty, we should just leave each other alone and worry more about ourselves. If they are what you want to deam “wrong” then let them find out for themselves. In the meantime, just let them be. There is only one person pure enough of heart to judge us and I can guarantee he’s not human.
Pepperlandgirl,
I’m going to echo most of whats been said to start: I’d like to think that the Christians who’ve attacked your own beliefs in the past have been (a) generally knowledgeable, thanks to publications by/endorsed by their particular Church or denomination, and (b) take a general worldview that says “Its all either black or white, there is no grey area”.
I read somewhere the other day that the Christian faith owes more to Plato than to Christ for believing in Black and White. I’ve gotte research that before I endorse it myself, but my gut reaction was “Yeah there’s truth in that”.
Re: What Flinx has said about what you actually believe versus what everyone else will tell you that you believe, I’d directly blame this on the amount of one sided material available thru Christian bok publishing. The amount of stuff written on “Deliverance from Cults” for people who are LDS or JW is staggering.
I’m a Christian. I don’t share your beliefs, based on my own limited knowledge. That being said, I don’t share a lot of “core Christian fundamentals” with the other Christians of my own denomination around me, nor do I necessarily consider all “liturgical expressions a hang-over from our Papal past” as evil and unnecessary. All I ever asked from those aound me was “Let me figure out what I believe on my own terms” and so I try to extend that to those around me.
To your OP:
I’ll throw this in. Sometimes loving someone might mean saying or doing something against their own will. usually, this is some form of patronising gesture… Parent stopping a child from doing something that will hurt it. I personally won’t take that stance with you… you’re not a child, and are certainly not mine to raise.
Christians believe they’ve been commanded to “Go forth and preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth” and so on; we mistakenly (I believe) assume that means we convert people, instead of living lives that exemplify that Gospel and let it speak for itself. And this, I think, is part of the reason why Christianity in general has taken a real hard-line stance against LDS and JW… because all we see and understand is people coming to “our doors and proselytizing us!”, and the human reaction to it is to fight back, fire with fire. Thats not Gospel, and you’re right in saying that.
Regards,
Jai Pey
I don’t pretend to have a thorough understanding of the LDS doctrines and beliefs, so let me ask this: what is your belief about the nature of Jesus Christ?
And yes, I know I can research it, and I am off to do that momentarily, but I want to hear from actual people. It was always my understanding that Mormons do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.
[quote]
Originally posted by CalifBoomer:
**The Ryan:
He probably won’t. Apparently, TR’s unfamiliar with the Jewish concept of “The Righteous Gentile.” That’s the concept of a non-Jew who doesn’t convert but still follows the Old Testament. But, one can’t really say that Christians follow the Laws of the Old Testament, now can one?
Yes, my former pastor told me that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were brothers. I almost directed him to the old debates last summer, but instead have this great book called Let No Man Deceive You by ? sent to me by someone…and it answers all of the rumors. People simply need to read everything they can about others beliefs to get the entire picture.
Hi Everyone I’m new here…but had to address this question…
Dearest Pepper
I was raised in the Baptist church. I wouldn’t trade my religous background for anything. In my mind it was the driving force behind the development of my beliefs and in many ways the shaping of my character. However, for these many years after I reached what I call the “age of doubt”, about 13, I have spent many hours trying to reconcile what I know to be true and what is now being taught in the Southern Baptist church. Lately I have been studying the early Christian church and non-cannonal writings. Many of our fellow Christians are unaware of the fact that the Bible they know is only a small portion of Judeo/Christian writings. Some were known about at the time our Bible was “cannonized” and some have been discovered much later in the 20th century. You must realize that the New Testement we know was not adopted until sometime after the 4th century, 350 or more years after the life of Christ. And that biblical scholars believe the oldest writings that we can be positively sure of were the letters of Paul, which must have been written sometime at least 50 to 70 A.D, well after his death. So the gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were most likely oral traditions that were finally written down sometime in the 1st or 2nd century. Oral traditions in the Jewish faith are very common. I’m telling you all of this to finally get to a point. (Praise the Lord! huh?)
For many years as I studied my scripture, and listened to the teachings of the elders and pastors of my church there was always this nagging feeling I had, a feeling that something wasn’t quite right. I felt like something was wrong with church doctrine. I couldn’t understand why women were still playing a subordinate roll. I couldn’t understand why so much condemnation for other beliefs (other Christian beliefs) was being embraced. Things just didn’t “feel” right to me. So I began to search for reasons. I didn’t have to look far. The reasons that there is so much intolerance in the Christian church is because it is being run by man. Like anything else it is subject to the interpretations and prejudices of the people who run the show. That’s all there is to it. We Christians are not seeing the entire picture. And in many instances church leaders use scare tactics in an effort to sway or control their congregations. (Hence the Satan and Jesus thing. Or that saying all gays are child molesters, etc.) The idea that your particular brand of worship is or would have been considered “heresy” is pretty much correct.
In defense of the average Christian guy… most of them are simply concerned for your soul. They have been taught to believe that what you do is wrong and will probably send you to hell. And what is it that you do exactly?..study an additional text that’s all. Any decent serious seminary college would include the study of more than just the King James Version of the Bible. But most people who go to church on Sunday are not interested in anything that they are not spoon-fed. So it’s very easy for them to be fed the wrong thing. They are simply being zealous for what they have been taught, and don’t mind expressing this idea because it has been implied that it is fine for them to condemn. Average Christians in little local churchs don’t have some big agenda for controlling their congregations, but I do believe that some of these larger ministries do. (Without naming anyone in particular, most of us know who these people are.)
So now I’m getting windy and maybe even rambling a little. Sorry. I just want you to understand and realize that many people will behave this way out of their own ignorance. They are simply barfing up what they’ve been fed.
Needs2know
Unitarian Universalist guy checking in:
Want some coffee? 
Esprix
{This space reserved for a Genuine WallyM7 Sig™}
CalifBoomer:
Christians claim to come from the Jewish tradition, but they don’t follow Jewish teachings. Therefore, they are heretics with respect to Judaism.
Monty:
Why do you have such an antagonistic attitude towards me? And just what is the point of bringing up the concept of a Righteous Gentile when you yourself admit that Christians don’t fit the definition?
I wanted to stay out of this, since I am not a Christian, but it seems I must set a matter or two straight.
Judaism does not define a gentile who is a Christian as a heretic.
Judaism ** does ** define a Jew who converts to Christianity as a heretic.
A Christian can be a “Righteous Gentile,” since they do believe in God (even if in partnership with Jesus).
We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate…
Zev Steinhardt
It has been a long time since I attended church or seminary, so what follows is WHAT I BELIEVE, and from what I remember accurately. However, if it is not EXACTLY what the Mormon church teaches, please DON"T jump down my throat, ok? I’m doing the best I can.
I believe that Christ is eternal, he will always be the same. He is seperate from God The Father, and the Holy Ghost. Three seperate Gods with a common goal. My seminary teacher explained it exactly to me along time ago, but now how he explained is fading. He paid for our sins in the Garden, and died in order to be resurrected so we may all be resurrected have perfect, immortal bodies, like his. However, we believe you can’t simply say “I accept Christ” and have our sins washed away. We have to WORK for it, prove we ARE sorry for our sins, prove through our works and words that we LOVE our Savior and will do anything to prove it. If we live to the best of our ability we will be exalted in heaven, and become a God/Goddess ourselves.
We believe that We are ALL brothers and sisters, that includes Jesus and Satan. From my understanding Lucifer had a pretty high place in heaven, he WAS known as “the Morning Star”. But he fell. So him and the 1/3 hosts of heaven are tormenting us here on Earth.
Hmmm, that’s pretty general and vague, and if people have specific questions to ask me, I will do my best to answer them. On ONE condition. As long as it’s a question, followed by an answer and THAT"S it. I tell you what I believe, not to start an arguement, just to let you know.
“Everybody’s got something to hide except for me and my monkey”-The Beatles
As long as we’re talking about anti-Mormonism (and someone already brought up Chick Tracts), here’s the specific anti-Mormon Chick Tract:
(Bonus! They finally have on on-line copy of Dark Dungeons on-line, a must for saving souls away the hideous evil of role-playing games!)
Just thought I’d throw that in for some specific examples of “Mormoism is the path to hell” style preaching.
JMCJ
“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame
Zev: Dang, you’re good. Not only that, you’re dang good. Thanks for posting that.
Ryan: There’s a readily visible saying on this site, to wit: “Fighting Ignorance.” You display a delight in ignorance. I’m willing to work with you in overcoming that. [Try to take that remark at least part way facetiously, pleae.]