No wuckin furries mate.
Far from being based in racism, the Gaelic for ‘black man’ is ‘Fear gorm’ (Fear pronounced ‘far’ and meaning man and Gorm pronounced ‘Gurum’ and meaning blue). Donn (pronounced ‘done’) is the Gealic for brown, but not used to refer to Black People.
As in Gaelic Fear Dubh (pronounced Dove) is almost exclusively a name given to the Devil himself, it is not used to describe Black People other than by people who speak little Irish and translate from a dictionary or limited vocabulary with English as their exclusive first language and cultural context.
There are also theories that the Moroccan travellers who were most probably the most commonly seen Black People seen in Ireland may have worn blue coloured garb, but there is also the theory that some shades of darker Black skin have a blue hue and may have influenced the descriptor also.
Throw in that Fear Ban (Pronounced Bawn) which could be a literal translation for ‘White’ man is rarely used by native speakers (fluent) but rather ‘Bui’ (Bwee) meaning yellow or Geal (g-yal) meaning ‘light’.
I’m not saying that we Irish get it right in terms of race relations all the time, but it’s fairly interesting to see that the Irish language (which is in some ways indicative of the cultural heritage) is a little more imaginative in it’s descriptors of different skin tones than the fairly polarised English use of black and white when surely nobody is accurately described by either word (although saying that you’ve not seen my legs which must come as close to white with a hint of blue as possible…).
As for Irish Dictionaries containing racially worrying words like Picaninny or N$%&er (can’t bring myself to type that one), it probably says a whole lot more about the words the Irish heard from the English (sorry - this is not a nationalistic attack) and a need to translate these words into some sense. The Irish Language is sadly not a truly ‘living’ language for the most of we Irish, rarely spoken outside of areas where it is used as a first language and sadly not known by many Irish. In order for a language to ‘live’, it is necessary to ‘create’ new words as they arise. They did not have an internet back in the day but Gaelic has a word for it now to stay alive and, for good or for bad, this necessarily requires offensive words to have a Gaelic version. This, I assume, would explain why that odious word may have been cleaned up to the correct ‘Fear Gorm/Blue Man’ in the text. I would hope that the translation had (Off.) for offensive, otherwise a natural speaker back when the dictionary was first printed might have inadvertently used the N word (I’ll bet under ‘Fear Gorm’ Gaelic to English they don’t re-use the N word)…
Does it not strike you as odd that the dictionary included derogatory racial epithets but not words like shit, piss, fuck, etc. that are more regularly used among Irish English speakers?
To further confuse things: with Irish, and Scottish Gaelic, being quite closely related – there come to mind the mythical “Blue Men”: “merfolk” who allegedly live beneath the waters of the Minch, the area of sea between the Scottish mainland and the Outer Hebrides. Blue Men are said occasionally to emerge from the deep, and haul themselves on board of boats plying the Minch. They will then sink the boat and drown its occupants, unless said occupants are able to match them in the extempore composition of verse.
In the light of the Irish for “black” humans, in fact meaning “blue”: find self wondering what colour the supernatural denizens of the Minch are actually thought to be, by those who describe them.
Yes actually it does strike me as odd in the context of what you’ve said about what ‘was’ included. In other ways not. The Irish language is missing out on a fair few words and expletives are amongst them. The Irish in Gaelic ‘cursed’ each other in more imaginative ways than spitting out expletives (not so these days using English where the most commonly used expletive can pop up in one sentence as noun, verb, pronoun and adjective with little malice intended). If memory serves me correctly there is one word only for penis and none for vagina. The less spoken about aspects of life were described ‘around’ but not actually named.
But, to answer your question, yes it is odd that the words this thread commenced with ‘were’ included thus…
As for people living under the sea off of the Scottish coast, that’s a new one on me. Perhaps we Celts are a mix of colour blind and biased at the same time…
I had a tour guide in Derry who was an Irishman of Chinese descent. He was from the rural west in the Republic of Ireland and grew up fluent in the Irish language. He was a Buddhist and would explain that he was neither a Catholic Buddhist nor a Protestant Buddhist.
He told a story of encountering two elderly women in a shop somewhere in a small town he was visiting. He overheard them speaking Irish wondering about “Who is this Chinaman and what do you supposed brought him here?” He went about his business until he was ready to leave, at which time he turned to the old women and told them how much he loved their town and their shop and wished them a beautiful day and good health- speaking to them in perfect Irish just to enjoy the look of disbelief on their faces.
I jumped at the chance to ask him the Irish word for “Chinaman”. He didn’t expect to be asked that question, he explained that although he used the word “Chinaman” when telling the story the old women actually just used the same word they would have used for a black man- he explained that it more accurately translates to “blue man” and said that the old generation rural Irish speakers would use that same term for any dark skinned non-Europeans.
(NOTE: I am not saying it’s accurate that they would use the same term for a black man or an asian man, I’m just reporting that he says they would and did use the same word)
bienville, a fascinating anecdote thanks. I’d have to ask some of my native speaking friends about it but it sounds plausible all right that older people would have used the same term for both, especially absent other information.
I believe they were glas, which is a different word for blue than gorm.
Good to have an expert here Dr. Drake. I recall hearing from a lecturer of mine some years ago that back in the day Gaelic speakers didn’t distinguish between colours to the extent anglophones now do. So that dubh/gorm were sometimes interchangeable as were buí/liath. It’s quite a while ago now and I may have missed some nuance in what he was saying but is there some truth in this?
No, but it is true that they were mapped differently. This is well beyond my understanding but I remember hearing it explained that it’s not just hue but tone and saturation that can be distinguished between colour words. It is perfectly believable, though, that what an English-speaker would see as “black” might be gorm in one case and dubh in another.
(Dr. Drake writes, re the “Blue Men”: I believe they were glas, which is a different word for blue than gorm.)
My chief “authority” about these undersea-type bods, is the book “Sea Room” by Adam Nicolson (publ. 2001) about that part of the world. For what it may be worth (and the author doesn’t know the Gaelic language – he’s “going by what he understands to have been told”): Nicolson writes that the local expression for the B.M. is, in fact, Fear Gorm – “Blue Men, or more exactly the Blue-Green Men. The adjective in Gaelic describes that dark half-colour which is the colour of deep sea water at the foot of a black cliff.”
This seeming general area of uncertainty, plus matters raised in this thread (as, above, one-time lack of precision in Gaelic re colours), has me wondering quite what colour folks may have been driving at, on this topic; and what possible miscomprehension between the languages.
And – interesting, the 1937 press cutting about the Connemara merman. In the light of the supposed habits of the Hebridean Blue Men – perhaps the fishermen’s distrust and warding-off, were only wise !
The following may be misapprehension on my part; but I have seen it suggested that the Celtic languages overall, are poorly-equipped in the general sphere of obscenities and expletives. Perhaps to do with the Celtic peoples’ strong religious streak… I’ve read that in Welsh, about the nastiest expressions available to hurl at someone, are mwnci gwrion = silly monkey; and mochyn budr bach = dirty little pig.
The phrases are correct, but it’s not true that those are the nastiest expressions available. Conventionally, the strongest epithets were religious, but there’s a fair range. There’s a website called the Rhegiadur (Swear-dictionary). It’s all in Welsh but perhaps google translate will show some of the colour. “Cachgi,” “Shit-dog,” (parallel to “corrgi,” “dwarf-dog”) is a nice traditional one.
Must visit that site – thanks. I find the realisation that my country’s Celtic neighbours are not all, to a man and woman, “saints and scholars”; at once disappointing, and reassuring.
Just like to add that “blue man” is also the word for “black person” in western scandinavian, and I think in Old Norse also (though I can’t confirm that).
So it’s not just the irish being strange here.
No, glas is the Gaelic for green. I’ve never heard it used to describe a persons skin colour.
And again, the Norse were no strangers to Ireland. Like any island nation visited and invaded, quite possible that we mingled cultural references… Or maybe it’s just a widely held apprehension across collective cultural unconscious that there is only one ‘black’ man…
And saying that, I just checked in a weird old Irish dictionary I have myself (no nasty words at all in this version and it’s from the 1920’s - my grandfathers dictionary) and Glas is indeed ‘old Irish’ for blue…
Well, it just shows, there is no right and wrong with old languages…
Glas is a complicated word whose historical range includes blue, green, and gray. It would certainly not be used do describe the skin colour of a healthy human being, but it is in fact used of supernatural beings in Gaelic folklore.