is there really a race of blue people?

Dear Cecil:
It is true that the gaelic people refer to black people as blue. I speak Irish (gaelige) and learn it in school,and a black man in irish is “fear gorm”, which translates as blue man. I have asked so many people why this is the case but no-one knows. -Colin Maher, Dublin, Ireland


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Irish gorm most closely corresponds to English blue, but they aren’t precisely the same thing. Gorm can take in shades that would be called green, grey or - yes- even black in English. It doesn’t mean that the ancient Irish thought black people were blue.

I mean, they’re not really “black” either, are they?

While I don’t know about the Irish I do know that in the Icelandic Sagas (originating around 1200-1400) blacks are most often referred to as Blámenn (lit. blue men) and a number of them were in the courts of various kings of Norway, Sweden and Denmark as fearsome warriors. Why called blue, I don’t know. But then again, one of the kings of Denmark was Harald Bluetooth, maybe he had black teeth?
But the term “Blamenn” was in use for black, no doubt about that.

Cheers
Pez

There is a simple explanation for Irish people calling black people blue men.

For centuries, in the Irish (Gaelic) language the Christian Devil was commonly called the Black Man, or an Fear Dubh. It is a very old phrase, and probably pre-Christian. The phrase is still used among native Irish speakers.

Because Ireland is an island off the coast of Northern Europe, Irish speakers of the past rarely people with “black” skins. When they first began to encounter them, the phrase “Black Man” was well established as meaning the devil. So they called them “blue men”.

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Is there really a race of blue people? (24-Jul-1998)


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It is interesting to note that “blue” has been used in the African-American community to refer to a very dark-skinned black man. Supposedly it refers to a blueish tinge the skin takes on, but I never noticed it, to be honest. I didn’t realized the term was considered offensive, but my slang dictionary lists it as such.

I was going to mention the “fear dubh” issue too but I’m not aware of any evidence that that is in fact the reason that “gorm” is used instead. Do you have a cite?

I was utterly offended by the supossed “all-knowing” Cecil’s total ignorance about Hinduism, arguably the oldest major religion on Earth! The reason Krisna is blue is because he is an avatar (earthly incarnation) of Vishnu. Vishnu is depicted as blue to symbolize his equanimity towards all things. He is between Bhrama the creator (often depicted as having a very light skin tone and always wearing white robes, white symbolizing creation) and Shiva the destroyer (depicted covered in ashes, the symbol of destruction). The closest color between these grey and white colors is blue. Because Vishnu the sustainer is blue, all his incarnations are depicted as blue for some reason or other. Blue is also seen as a color of peace and serenity (the ocean) which is another reason Vishnu is blue, he symbolizes perfect equanimity in all situations. Between life and death, love and hate, and white and black.
Now, if someone could just tell me if the theory of Aryans invading India is true or not. I have seen many essays and articles discrediting this and they seem rather convincing. Does anyone know about this?

Yes.

Dia Duit, Colin.

I’m not too sure about the Devil/Fear dubh explination. seeing as we have about 6 or 7 names for the devil ( an debhil, for example) I dont think that fear gorm originated from that.
As you know, the pub is often better than a liberary as a source of information in Ireland. I asked a few teachers that I know last night and they promised to look into it for me.
Also, the pint went up another 10p on Sunday. Thats 20p since Christmas.
Argh, the things we do for Arthur…

Dia is muire dhuit Arthur. And thanks to everyone else too. :slight_smile:

I am not very fluent in Irish, but my father-in-law spoke Irish from birth. When we discussed this, he said that his family called the Devil “an Fear Dubh” (the Black Man). There are many names for the Devil in Irish, as in English, but there is no doubt that native Irish speakers understand “an Fear Dubh” to mean the Devil.

I can not remember any text reference now, but I have certainly seen references over the years. It is the standard explanation for calling a black man “fear gorm” (blue man) in Irish, and I am aware of no other.

My father-in-law saw it as courtesy. If they use the literal translation, fear dubh, Irish speakers call a black man a devil.

In English, names like Prince of Darkness or Beelzebub are very old yet continue in use. The same seems to have happened with Fear Dubh. If the old Scandinavians referred to blue men, this also confirms that the reference is an old one. (Although their black men must have been born in Africa, and were probably blue from cold.)

Will we continue this conversation in Irish and make the moderators paranoid?

Slan agus beannacht.

On this web page, Ten Avatars of Vishnu, not all the Avatars are blue-skinned. Encyclopedia Britannica, in their article on Vishnu, said that he is traditionally represented as being “dark complexioned”. Another page I saw says that he is represented as being “dark blue” or “black”.

The story of Mastya Avatar held special interest to me, since I was raised in the Catholic Faith.

Reminds me of a biblical event.

[Edited by Arnold Winkelried on 04-25-2001 at 09:40 AM]

It would depend on the location of the native, Balor. As I’m sure you know, there are several dialects of Irish. One of my Irish teachers referred to the Devil as “an Sassanach” :wink:

Agus ag chaint as Gaelige? Ni raibh me abalta!!!

Seeing that Aryans (linguistically, at least) now inhabit and dominate northern India, and that they certainly didn’t come from there, how the Hell can it be discredited? Did the pre-Aryan peoples of India invite them in? “Please, O noble Aryans, since we are no better than scum, and the very sight of us profanes your most holy men, come live in our land and rule over us?”

If Krisna is evidence of blue people, then Ganesh is evidence of people with very very big ears and very very long noses.

Well Kennedy, most of this evidence states that the Aryans never did dominate northern India in the first place. There are no major differences between north and south Indians, the only difference being that the southern ones tend to be darker. But this is more likely due to the trade they likely had with the ancient african empires. Also, Northern Indians tend to be shorter and slimmer, whereas Aryans are often depicted as tall and large. Most of the so-called Aryan influence is more likely Greek cultural influences from Alexander the Great and the remnants of his empire which streched near Afghanistan. Islamic influences are also more prevalent in Northern India which could have led the British invaders to think that the Northern culture was inherently different from the southern without taking into account the larger amount of Muslims in the north.

Ya, I noticed that about the Matsya Avatar too. The Babylonian myth of Gilgamesh is also very similar to Noah’s ark. It seems the story of the flood was rather popular.

From an etymological perspective, that’s a very poor argument. There are “standard explanations” for the origins of many words (“tip” and “posh” come to mind) that are absolute cac. Without a reputable cite I’m inclined to dismiss this as more of the same.

For one thing it presumes that the Irish would have referred to black people as dubh had that expression not already been taken, and there’s not necessarily any good reason to think that (as I said earlier, black people aren’t really “black” any more than they are “blue”). I’ve seen it said elsewhere that “blue” was also used for this purpose in the Sanskrit and Old Scandinavian languages. As Ireland was exposed to the latter far earlier than to English, it seems reasonable to me that fear gorm was simply an adaptation of the Scandinavian term, but that’s just a guess - I haven’t a cite either.

Ranger2099: Hmmm…The Aryan penetration of North India being a myth would seem to fly in the face of linguistic evidence. Do you have any cites? Not a snide request by the way - I’m genuinely curious :slight_smile: .

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