I have decided to become an atheist (hypothetical)

[RedFury]

Am I irrational for killing babies? My god told me so. It only follows that I’m not, and further, that I’m moral. Why? Because my ski-friend tells me so. See, it’s say so right there, Chap. 125896, Psalm XVII, Verse 13259, Interpretation Mine.

Is that logic or insane theism?

Just turning the tables. Fair is fair.

*Substitute all the above the hyperbole. Learn what some sects of Jehovah’s Witnesses believe about blood transfusions and it becomes all too real. Dying because they don’t have the capacity to live in reality.

Talk about sad…

[Cervaise]

@mswas

Explain to me why I have any obligation not to rob, cheat, defraud, rape or murder you if I can get away with it.

Well, I’m convinced; bend over.

[MrDibble]

@mswas

That was the argument I made for discarding with morality and love altogether. That they could not be separated from cultural context that was dominated by a religious construction.

Fundamentally (heh), I disagree with you as to the extent our societal morality is the result of religion vs being an emergent property of society itself.

Even chimps have morality. And their simple society isn’t based on religion.

[begbert2]

I’d like to just interrupt a little and say that for a while, I actually held the attitude espoused by the OP, or rather the attitude it would espouse if it wasn’t being outright ridiculous. Obviously, no intelligent person goes around thinking that there are not significant secular and physical consequences to breaking laws and acting like an ass; so no intelligent person goes around acting like that, god or no god.

I achieved this base, selfish, purely consequence-based morality as a youth; my parents were both religious, and when I failed to buy into the silly sky-fairy, it left them with no avenue through which to teach or demonstrate non-religious morality. So, I went feral. This meant I was relatively nice, polite, and obedient. It also meant that I would break rules if I thought I could get away with it, or if the expected consequence wasn’t sufficiently threatening to dissuade me. The furthest I took this was stealing food, and eventually money from my parents. (Their consequences were far more lenient than the threat that civil law presents.)

I don’t do anything like that anymore, of course. What happened? I grew up, is what happened. I eventually noticed that if one games the rules and consequences, ever, it eventually comes back to bite you. And somewhat later on I noticed that if I held a consistent standard of behavior, I could define myself around it, and build pillars with which so support self-esteem that way, making it an even further desirable behavior.

As one who’s been there, I can say with definitive certainty that the crude selfish morality that the OP is painting as being the single inevitable choice for all atheists- -that’s a childish mentality. If a person thinks that that’s the only avenue available to atheists, it’s because the crutch of religion has prevented their own moral thinking from developing to an adult level.

If mswas actually did suddenly turn atheist, his moral capabilty might indeed be so stunted that he’d go through a period of acting like a spoiled selfish child too, but eventually, barring some sort of persistent mental block or getting shot first for his behavior, he’d grow into a proper adult and join the rest of atheist humanity.

[RedFury]

Ooooops!

Make that Psalm XVII, 27th revision, Apologists Edition[sup]®[/sup].

All sprinkled with some Mystic Dust at Sunday School of course.

As we all know, it’s rather important to clarify the exact source of our beliefs.

Right. Off I go to lament the demons of Bayern Munich.

PS-Heavenly Prizes awarded to anyone who can elucidate on that last reference.

[mswas]

As one who’s been there, I can say with definitive certainty that the crude selfish moralith that the OP is painting as being the single inevitable choice for all atheists- -that’s a childish mentality. If a person thinks that that’s the only avenue available to atheists, it’s because the crutch of religion has prevented their own moral thinking from developing to an adult level.

Except I never said anything about inevitability or all atheists, that’s just something people keep insisting that I implied. I’m glad you were able to identify with the things I said, and not with the things I didn’t say. Thank you for providing the example.

[mswas]

Oh, to all you atheists who are claiming that I am lying when I say I wasn’t talking about all atheists. You are breaking the rules.

[mswas]

@MrDibble

Fundamentally (heh), I disagree with you as to the extent our societal morality is the result of religion vs being an emergent property of society itself.

Even chimps have morality. And their simple society isn’t based on religion.

Well I would argue that religion is intrinsic to society. Your moral beliefs are unalterably defined by Christianity by virtue of living in Western society. Pochacco gets this, which is why I gave his posts more attention than others.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@mswas

Your moral beliefs are unalterably defined by Christianity by virtue of living in Western society.

Bullshit.

[mswas]

LilShieste Great response. The bit that I will respond to now, is the bit about love and mental illness.

Love: Not everyone defines it as an emotion, some seem to define it as an experience of something external to one’s emotions. It would be interesting to see a Linguistic analysis of the origin of the word. I am under the impression that it is a Christian concept, and from a Christian perspective it it something far more than an emotion.

Mental Illness: Psychology can be observed using scientific principles, but proper functioning is often a result of societal norms. It seems to me that there is a mental illness to accomodate for the full range of human emotion, in order to sell medication. The notion of illness is entirely subjective.

Laziness: ADHD
Sad: Depression
Get Excited and Sad: Bipolar
Can think with different methods of thought: Schizophrenia
Get angry: Anger management issues

Whether or not it is an illness seems to be directly proportional to the level of social acceptability. How often have we read anecdotal stories of kids diagnosed with ADHD in Public schools who change to homeschooling or alternative schools and flourish?

[mswas]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Bullshit.

No, you and Der Trihs are removed from the overall narrative of Western society.

Secular Humanism has NO roots whatsoever in the Humanism of Thomas More. :rolleyes:

[The_Hamster_King]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Bullshit.

I gotta agree with **mswas ** here. Christian principles have had a strong influence on European (and by extension, American) morality. Even among atheists like me. Of course, the same could be said of classical Greek values and they were pagans.

[mswas]

@Pochacco

I gotta agree with **mswas ** here. Christian principles have had a strong influence on European (and by extension, American) morality. Even among atheists like me. Of course, the same could be said of classical Greek values and they were pagans.

Absolutely.

[RedFury]

@mswas

Well I would argue that religion is intrinsic to society. Your moral beliefs are unalterably defined by Christianity by virtue of living in Western society.

So tell us again, which side is right? The Eye for and Eye one or the Turn the Other Cheek school of thought?

Those are both Christian values, correct?

[Anomalous_Reading]

@begbert2

I’d like to just interrupt a little and say that for a while, I actually held the attitude espoused by the OP, or rather the attitude it would espouse if it wasn’t being outright ridiculous. Obviously, no intelligent person goes around thinking that there are not significant secular and physical consequences to breaking laws and acting like an ass; so no intelligent person goes around acting like that, god or no god.

*snip *

What happened? I grew up, is what happened. I eventually noticed that if one games the rules and consequences, ever, it eventually comes back to bite you. And somewhat later on I noticed that if I held a consistent standard of behavior, I could define myself around it, and build pillars with which so support self-esteem that way, making it an even further desirable behavior.

As one who’s been there, I can say with definitive certainty that the crude selfish morality that the OP is painting as being the single inevitable choice for all atheists- -that’s a childish mentality. If a person thinks that that’s the only avenue available to atheists, it’s because the crutch of religion has prevented their own moral thinking from developing to an adult level.

If mswas actually did suddenly turn atheist, his moral capability might indeed be so stunted that he’d go through a period of acting like a spoiled selfish child too, but eventually, barring some sort of persistent mental block or getting shot first for his behavior, he’d grow into a proper adult and join the rest of atheist humanity.

THIS post I agree with. And more or less said what I was thinking. I disagree with the last bit. Given what I’ve seen, after a while mswas would end up a slightly tamer DT. (Leopard, spots - hey, God didn’t make him give up on acting this way, I doubt a lack of God would either.)

One other thing - a recommended reading. It’s science and as such seems largely outside the theist/atheist fray - Moral Minds by Marc Hauser.

[mswas]

@RedFury

So tell us again, which side is right? The Eye for and Eye one or the Turn the Other Cheek school of thought?

Those are both Christian values, correct?

Eye for an eye is old testament. Turn the other cheek is New Testament.

I never claimed I was a Christian. ;p

[Der_Trihs]

@mswas

Oh, to all you atheists who are claiming that I am lying when I say I wasn’t talking about all atheists. You are breaking the rules.

Which is why I and everyone else are dancing around the word “lie”. And you shouldn’t defend yourself by making assertions that people aren’t allowed to contradict. I consider this thread a good example why the rule against accusing people of lying is a bad idea. It gives the advantage to liars, and essentially requires people to lie.

@mswas

Love: Not everyone defines it as an emotion, some seem to define it as an experience of something external to one’s emotions.

Well, they are wrong. All the evidence is that it’s just an emotion.

@mswas

It would be interesting to see a Linguistic analysis of the origin of the word. I am under the impression that it is a Christian concept, and from a Christian perspective it it something far more than an emotion.

You are actually claiming that love is a Christian concept ?

@mswas

The notion of illness is entirely subjective.

No, it’s not. Someone who can’t function isn’t healthy. Someone who’s brain or body can’t perform it’s proper function is sick.

[mswas]

@Anomalous Reading

THIS post I agree with. And more or less said what I was thinking. I disagree with the last bit. Given what I’ve seen, after a while mswas would end up a slightly tamer DT. (Leopard, spots - hey, God didn’t make him give up on acting this way, I doubt a lack of God would either.)

One other thing - a recommended reading. It’s science and as such seems largely outside the theist/atheist fray - Moral Minds by Marc Hauser.

I would never resemble Der Trihs, I have social skills. If I were suddenly to cease believing in God, I wouldn’t be all rabidly against it. I unlike him can see rational benefits that if suddenly removed would not be socially beneficial. I don’t have anything against atheism per se.

[MrDibble]

@RedFury

PS-Heavenly Prizes awarded to anyone who can elucidate on that last reference.

Curse the away goals rule, eh?

@mswas

Well I would argue that religion is intrinsic to society. Your moral beliefs are unalterably defined by Christianity by virtue of living in Western society.

You have no idea what shapes my moral beliefs - let’s just say that my morality is more shaped by Darwin, Epicureanism and Nietzsche than any three religious influences you could name.

@mswas

Pochacco gets this, which is why I gave his posts more attention than others.

Which is a shitty posting habit BTW - if you just want (what you think is) an echo chamber, why are you in GD?

[begbert2]

@mswas

Except I never said anything about inevitability or all atheists, that’s just something people keep insisting that I implied. I’m glad you were able to identify with the things I said, and not with the things I didn’t say. Thank you for providing the example.

My example shows that your OP is a childish and undeveloped perspective. Which I think is sufficient to show that if you seriously think that you, as an adult, would adopt it if you converted to atheism…then the problem is not with the atheism.
And, your OP framed everything as absolutes and nothing as conditionals. If I say “Religious people are delusional”, then the “all” is implied - and attempts to backtrack and claim that I’d never said anything about all theists…those would be lies. (Not to mention the suspicious nature of negatively playacting as a role, and then backtracking and claiming that you didn’t mean to apply it to the group you were explicitly aping. ‘Why, no, just because I said, “I’m going to be a theist now”, and then immidiately started acting like a retard, that didn’t imply anything about theists, no not at all!’ :rolleyes: )

This sort of backtracking sounds exactly like the sort of consequence-avoidance efforts you ascribe to your atheist persona in the OP - and you’re not currently playacting as the atheist, one presumes. Which is interesting, in that it seems to point to where the problematic morality may actually lie.