I help vets mutilate puppies

[wonky]

@catsix

My mentally deficient friend? I think you need to back the wagon up just a bit. I specifically stated that she is a friend of a relative of mine. Although that won’t stop you from attempting to sully me by calling her my friend.

If you’re sullied, it’s because you used her as an example of anything other than rampant stupidity.

I’ll give you a hint: the lack of genetic diversity in different breeds of dogs goes straight on back to the founders of the breed and the fact that the same founder can be seen more than once in the first few entries of a stud book, because it was mated to its own relatives - including sisters and grand-children.

This is what I found on sites about purebred dogs. Too few founders, closed stud books, continued overbreeding of ‘show champions’, continued narrowing of the gene pool, cases like the Wycliffe Kennel creating an entire breed of dogs (black standard poodle) where every living specimen can trace the majority of its ancestry to one kennel, that those who pursue the ‘show dog’ look dwindle the gene pool even further by eliminating genes that create different looks in dogs that have good health and temperment, and the fact that the AKC still allows the registration of dogs that have genetic problems.

Take a gander at k9web.com or yourpurebredpuppy.com or caninegenetics.com.

If a lack of genetic diversity doesn’t lead to health problems, why do we discourage close human relatives from marrying and producing children?

I dunno. How about you prove your assertions that purebreds produced by someone other than puppymills and backyard breeders have more problems and diseases? Because if you breed two healthy animals, ones that have been checked and doublechecked and tested and vetted, seems your chances of having a diseased offspring is less than if you just go at things randomly. But that’s my guess. It’s as worthwhile as yours until you provide cites. And no, telling me to go look at a website isn’t a cite. Give data.

[catsix]

MixieArmadillo: Yes of course, your breeder is flawless. And Archergal having one dog that’s a mixed breed with health problems proves that purebred dogs are better because the plural of anecdote is data.

jsgoddess said:
If you’re sullied, it’s because you used her as an example of anything other than rampant stupidity.

Well I’ve said all along I have a low opinion of people who breed dogs.

How about you prove your assertions that purebreds produced by someone other than puppymills and backyard breeders have more problems and diseases?

Ah the ‘no true Scotsman’ argument!

Because if you breed two healthy animals, ones that have been checked and doublechecked and tested and vetted, seems your chances of having a diseased offspring is less than if you just go at things randomly.

Not when the recessive genes are inherent to the breed. Or are you claiming that they’ve got full genetic workups going on and can accurately choose which genes will combine?

But that’s my guess. It’s as worthwhile as yours until you provide cites. And no, telling me to go look at a website isn’t a cite. Give data.

I didn’t guess, I went and read. Your turn to go read.

[wonky]

@catsix

Ah the ‘no true Scotsman’ argument!

How many times have people said in this thread that there are good breeders and bad breeders? So then you act surprised when I bring it up again? Which thread are you reading?

If someone wants to provide cites, I’ll read them. I won’t go digging around the internet to prove your argument. Cleaning the grout on my bathtub with my fingernail would be more rewarding.

[catsix]

I gave you the names of the sites. You don’t want to read them? Don’t.

I’ll leave the thread and you can turn it into a big discussion of how much you love your purebred dogs and the people who inbreed them.

[samm]

catsix please don’t come back until you have read and comprehended:

http://www.nylana.org/RRACI/brackett.htm

Thank you.

[Archergal]

@catsix

Take a gander at k9web.com or yourpurebredpuppy.com or caninegenetics.com.

From Your Purebred Puppy given above:

When one purebred is compared to one mixed breed, either may come out ahead.

and

You can’t get around it. Non-purebred dogs are unpredictable.

and

Some mixed breed dogs are inbred just as much or worse than purebred dogs.

and

To sum up, a non-purebred can be a fine choice…# if you’re willing to accept the potential for genetic defects and health problems (greater in some mixes than in others)

So even your sources don’t agree with you, catsix.

[RedFury]

@lavenderviolet

Being interested in Dobermans, I was reading a magazine about them recently that addressed this issue. Some of the breeders feel that, since the cropped ear look is so well known for dobermans, it’s important to keep cropping the ears so that people recognize what kind of dog they are and are careful around them to avoid provoking an attack. Sure, most dobermans are loving dogs, but to a stranger who isn’t careful, they can obviously be quite dangerous.
I don’t like the idea of doing a painful procedure to an animal for cosmetic reasons, but I also don’t like the idea of someone approaching an uncropped doberman and perhaps getting mauled because they didn’t realize they were dealing with such a powerful breed and acted in a way that provoked the animal’s protective instincts.

Silly argument if you ask me – and I am the fortunate owner of a completely whole 72 lb. dobegirl. If she was any sweeter I’d stir one of her paws to sugar my coffee.

BTW, I’ve never had her mistaken for any other breed.*

*She was only about 7 months in that pic.

[RedFury]

@BluePitbull

To be honest, I do think dobermans look better with show crop ears than the floppy ears but I don’t want to put a puppy through that.

I thik they look ugly and mean as hell. Then again, if you what you really want is a junkyard dog…

One last question, doesn’t crop ears and dock tails affect communication?

As a long time dog owner, I find a dog’s tail movement the easiest clue for their current state of mind.

And I am hardly the only one. Here, let a dog tell you himself.

Docking removes a very valuable tool for communication. We dogs use our tails to tell each other how we’re feeling. We use different positions and movement to let others know if we’re happy, excited, scared, not sure, a bit grumpy or that we may attack. If we meet a docked dog in the park and we can’t tell what they’re going to do, some of us may well launch an attack just to be on the safe side! That’s not very fair on a perfectly friendly docked dog, who must be awfully confused as to why others keep beating him up and may even lead to him becoming aggressive on meeting other dogs or people as a way to defend himself.

[NajaNivea]

[QUOTE=catsix]
MixieArmadillo: Yes of course, your breeder is flawless.

[QUOTE]

That’s all you got?

[vetbridge]

@catsix

@vetbridge

A good breeder isn’t in it for the money and is lucky to break even. My friend makes no money off her dogs. NONE. I’m lucky if I get to play with a puppy or two all year, since that’s how little she breeds. Any money goes right back into the kennel, health checks, shows, etc… all right back into the dogs.

NO I DID NOT!!! Please do not put words into my mouth. I did not say this, velveeta did. Is it really that difficult to quote the correct poster?

[MEBuckner]

@vetbridge

NO I DID NOT!!! Please do not put words into my mouth. I did not say this, velveeta did. Is it really that difficult to quote the correct poster?

Moderator’s Note: Quote attributions in the original post have been corrected.

[vetbridge]

^gracias.

[Renee]

@MixieArmadillo

I think the problem with this debate is that pound puppy fans will never understand people who are choosy about what they want in a dog. It’s not that I just wanted a canine to live in my house and be my bud, I had very specific ideas about what I wanted. Lots of people do. Some people like big, floppy, drooly, protective, calm dogs. Some people like little, yippy, spunky dogs that need to be prissed over and professionally groomed. Some people don’t care, they just want a dog. Like I said to Catsix, good news is we all have options.

Actually, if you are really picky about the particular “features” of your dog, getting an adult dog either from the pound or from the classified adds is your best bet. I have not found all that much consistency in temperament and personality in purebred dogs (within the breed, of course). When you adopt an adult dog, you know exactly what you’re getting. It is right there in front of you. We adopted our fabulous dog Mira from the pound, where she was the only one in the place not barking at me, simply sitting calmly and looking up at me. Since she was about a year old, we knew how big she was and what she looked like. We recently got another mixed breed from the paper who’s owners didn’t feel they had enough time for her. She is about 8 months old, calm, as quiet as the first, non-destructive, and a total sweetheart. I knew they would get along because we got to introduce them first. They are the easiest, lowest maintenance dogs I have ever had. And I didn’t have to house train them! So that’s my plug for adopting an adult dog.

Also, about the crushing vertebrae and twisting the tails off: The clinic I worked for had 2 vets; the first simply snipped the tails, the second used a small surgical clamp that crushed the tails and twisted them off. The second method was decidedly creepier, but almost never bled and the puppies were asleep a few seconds after the procedure, so I am not sure it made much difference to them. I am assuming this method crushed a few of the tiny vertebrae, but don’t really know. People should keep in mind how tiny these puppies are 2 days old. The tail pieces are usually about 1-2" long. This isn’t a particularly fun procedure, but all in all not one of the more traumatic things that happens at vet clinics.

[Fetchund]

@Renee

Actually, if you are really picky about the particular “features” of your dog, getting an adult dog either from the pound or from the classified adds is your best bet. I have not found all that much consistency in temperament and personality in purebred dogs (within the breed, of course). When you adopt an adult dog, you know exactly what you’re getting. It is right there in front of you.

Well, to a degree… but.

Most adult dogs take about 6 weeks to fully acclimatize themselves to a situation. I have had fosters that were just fine the first few weeks, and then got ‘comfortable’ in their places and decided to challenge for a place in the pack hierarchy. Conversely, I’ve had others who, after feeling stable and secure in a situation, blossomed from shy or timid to gregarious and playful.

But… if you want an idea of the possible temperaments of a purebred puppy, it takes research. Meet the sire and dam. Meet previous offspring. Watch them work. Talk to the breeder, and others “in the breed”. Meet the pups from a young age and do some temperament testing. Took me 6 years to settle on my current pup, but she is everything I wanted. Getting a “purebred” dog from a petstore is a disaster, yes.

But, to deal with one of catsix dilemmas: Why do you think that wild wolves, African Wild Dogs, Coyotes or any other canids are NOT interbred? They don’t carry their geneological charts around with them. After a generation or so, you can pretty much be assured that an offspring is going to get around to the original pack again.

And, my old “pound-mutt” was killed by a disease known primarily in purebred scotties - didn’t make that fuzzy 50lber any less prone to it!

[DemonSpawn]

Off topic excursion:

I have no problem with responsible breeders, unless they breed for traits that are harmful to the animals (e.g. flat noses) or mutilate their animals. Although I don’t, I can relate to people who want a specific breed of dog/cat. Not everybody is capable of living with the little bit of uncertainty that comes with every dog that is from animal rescue. Working with animal rescue I have experienced that those animals require a certain flexibility and insight from their owners, that not everybody has. Everything that goes wrong with a dog from the pond is automaticall blamed on its past , unless you have the insight to distinguish between what is a problem of the dog’s past experiences, and what are the problems you have caused yourself.

My problem is with the 2 fallacies that exist when people insist on having a purebred puppy because they are looking for certain traits in their dog:

Fallacy 1: that only a dog of this breed can fulfill all the requirements that they have for a dog

Fallacy 2: that every dog of this breed will fulfill all these requirements.

I agree with Renee that if you are fixated on certain traits, you need to get an adult dog.

Back to the topic of the thread (tail docking, ear clipping, yes or no?):

When tail and ear mutilation were outlawed here (1997/98), there were of course also voices against the new law. Some breeders were moaning about the way their dogs would look and foreseeing that enthusiasts of certain breeds would now buy clipped/docked dogs in neighboring countries. This does indeed happen, I hope we are going to get new additions to this law that prohibit bringing clipped/docked dogs into the country. There is already a law against showing such dogs in dog shows.

Hunting dogs, by the way, can still have their tails docked. So if you are a breeder of a hunting line of the breed, that’s fine.

As far as problems with hurting the tail while in the kennel are concerned: there are restrictions with regards to keeping dogs in a kennel. Chaining dogs is also not allowed. These restrictions make for happier dogs, so that the instances of tail injury are kept to a minimum. If they do occur, they should be treated as a behavioural problem. If the tail needs to come off because it is infected, that’s fine. But the focus should be to prevent the situation in which the injury may happen. So if your dog can not stand being kept in a kennel, don’t do it.