I lived 50 miles north of Saskatoon. It was THE BIG CITY. Wow, we’re going to Saskatoon!
To this day, I think of it as a big city.
Anyway, listen to Mr. Gorsnak - he said everything I was going to say almost word for word.
Then why were all the predators, most notably the wolves, wiped out of Yellowstone the beginning of last century? To protect those hearty, tough cattle. Unless you’re saying the ranchers are irrationally worried about predators killing their precious cows. You can’t have it both ways.
Yep.
Since I want the beef industry to disappear, I really don’t care if the ranchers are financially solvent. Yes, they can get other jobs. It’s the nature of the marketplace. It happens ALL THE TIME. Should all industries whose time has past be saved by the government and maintained artificially? I highly doubt you’d say that for any other industry on its way out.
This is an evasion of the point and more than a little disingenuous.
Cannibalistic cows is how BSE started. The fact that the practice has ceased is like closing the barn door after the cow is already out, so to speak. As for the public lands, they’re grazing on them, which means the indigenous animal population is going to be fucked with, mostly by shaving off the top of the food chain. You can’t deny this. I’m not the only person who thinks this is a problem and an injustice.
Ah. What a relief. And BSE wasn’t caused by tricking cows into eating each other, right? Mmmhmmm. All for this all-important bottom line. Well, you reap what you sow, right? Now they’ll be the victim of other people’s bottom line.
Oh, this is really bullshit. Dogs are omnivores. Cows are herbivores. They are not meant to eat meat on any sort of regular basis. Checking out their digestive tract will illustrate this point. Interesting how you will continue to defend the practices of the beef industry, right down to making shit up. I’m not the only one with a fevered imagination.
Oh, please. Seriously, now.
Until they recently passed a law against it, unhealthy cows who couldn’t walk could be butchered and sold as meat. So what difference does it make if the cow is unhealthy? The bottom line is what counts, cowboy!
Ideally, that’s exactly what would happen. It’s happened before and it’ll happen again. This is the smallest violin in the world playing just for the beef farmers. I feel sorry for anyone who’s out of work, but I also have to feel bad for all the people who worked at IBM up here, or in Flint, MI, or any number of my friends who were downsized post-9/11. They have all had to get other jobs because their former jobs became unnecessary. It sucks, but it’s what the economy demands. If consumers are afraid of BSE, rationally or not, the beef industry is going to go down. I for one will be glad.
So now answering a vile stream of expletives with a calm response is me patting myself on the back? :rolleyes: Yes, Drk’s posts to me have been flawed and irrational, because he’s been put into a white hot rage over a Pit thread on the Internet and despite his college education can only call me names. That’s pretty flawed and irrational. It also doesn’t fight gnorance, break a chain or free a human soul, as Twain said. It’s just him popping off, full of sound and fury, signifying…nothing.
My heart isn’t particularly bleeding over the cows, either. You assumed that but, shockingly enough, you are wrong. My heart bleeds for the poor people who ate beef and whose brains turned into Swiss cheese due to the beef industry’s unnatural feeding practices in pursuit of the bottom line. Care much about those suffering people, and the ones who will suffer in the future when/if this disease spreads?
My heart also bleeds for the natural ecosystem of this continent, which you have to admit has been fucked with by the ranching industry in a big way. I think if it went away, after the short-term suffering of job loss and the pain of economical adjustment, the long-term gains would be much greater. I think that grazing land could be put to better use, and we wouldn’t have to worry about evil shit like BSE, which is entirely the fault of the fucked up feeding practices of the beef industry. If your industry can’t stay in the black without such practices, then you deserve to go out of business, because look at the consequences.
I’m as unlikely to change your mind as you are to change mine. I guess that’s the fabled bottom line.
Oh yeah-- and DrkGntly Stick and stones, buddy. Sticks and fucking stones. 
I’ll not have my head banged together with yours like a coconut by getting into some slap fight with you. Say something worth discussing or just ignore me, willya?
“Natural ecosystem”? Surely you cannot mean the ecosystem that existed just before the ranching industry was created, since THAT was an ecosystem that had been massively “fucked with” in part by the native Americans, who’d helped to wipe out much of the megafauna. The “natural ecosystem” of this continent once included giant ground sloths, dire wolves, and bears the size of Buicks. Wasn’t ranchers that got rid of them.
North America has no permanent “natural ecosystem.”
Whatever the fauna was or is here, North America used to have large predators pretty much everywhere; in the “recent” past, those predators were cougars, wolves, bears, wolverines, you know, that type of thing. Now, they are either gone or endangered. Wolves were wiped out of Yellowstone to accommodate the ranchers leasing public land bordering the park. No predators? That is unnatural in ANY ecosystem, you must agree.
If anything should be grazing on those public lands, it should be the herds of bison that were also wiped out at the behest of ranching interests. But we digress from the point this thread.
Wolves have been reintroduced into Yellowstone, as well as other locations.
Your cite demonstrates current ranching concerns about bison diseases which are communicable to cattle. Do you have a cite that bison were “wiped out at the behest of ranching interests”?
You’re giving humans too little credit with this statement.
But seriously, your beef (hoho, behold the super pun) on this thread can be said about any industry. Your hopes for people to not consume meat have been partially explained by your hatred of the industry. However, industries tend to destroy/consume everything in their path. They do that. Some do it more rationally than others, but you’d be hard-pressed to find one that is 100% environment friendly.
But go on. I’ll let you on your beef crusade. Just know that it’s an industry, like all others. Now, do that and let me eat my friggin’ cow in peace.
Your rant makes you sound like you believe all cattle farming/ranching results in herds of zombie cows right outta Gil’s All-Fright Diner. Hilarious book, but deliberately exaggerated for effect.
Some grossly irresponsible, greedy beef producers spawned a terrible disease. Not all. Every industry has its conscienceless money whores. I’m flabbergasted that you rant about goverment bailouts, yet mention the impact on Michigan. Big Brother and his moneybags dumped a bundle to save car manufacturerers that tanked because they built crappy, unsafe cars. “What’s good for GM is good for the nation”–remember that golden oldie? The lasting widespread impact, environmental and otherwise, of petroleum-fuelled vehicles makes cattle ranching look like a hiccup.
I don’t like mega-farms of any sort–grain, chicken, hog–mainly because they have a lousy track record for irresponsibly shitting in their own–and everyone else’s–if it will wring out an extra dime. It’s short-sighted, ultimately self-defeating (and therefore lousy business practice), and flat out immoral, IMO.
But c’mon already. The entire industry should be eliminated?
Your approach amounts to a sweeping, ‘“kill 'em all and let God sort out the guilty ones.” I actively contribute to wolf rescue but I still eat beef. And I’m not willing for a single second to demand other peoples’ livelihood be wiped out just because some theories about it don’t jibe with my preferences.
But back to the OP…the U.S. pulled the bluster card about contaminated beef, pointing fingers at Canada, our best and closest trading partner, at the first hint of a problem. Speaking of short-sightedness, panic and short-sightedness…oh yes, and human costs. It proved the old chestnut about fingers pointed in accusation: the hidden fingers are aimed right back at the pointer.
Veb
I can’t speak for U.S. ranches, but here in Canada, ranches spring up where there is pretty much no other use for the land other than having cattle wandering over it, eating what’s there. Now, cities, that’s hard on a natural ecosystem.
Sure I can. Ranchers don’t want to lose any animals. None. Zero. In the wild, there would naturally be some attrition from predation, but so long as it doesn’t rise above a certain level, it’s not detrimental to the herd, and may even be beneficial. I think it would be not unlikely that if a beef herd were let loose in the wild it would be able to fend off predators well enough to get by. If you think cows aren’t capable of defending themselves, I suggest you hop in a pen with a pissed off cow and find out for yourself. They’re big, agile, and powerful.
That’s nice. However, it completely misses the point I was making, which was that it is entirely reasonable for ranchers to use antibiotics.
It most certainly is not. Use of growth hormones manipulates the levels of naturally occuring substances. Sort of like, oh, I dunno, birth control pills. You’re against those too, right? Look, the point is that those crying doom and gloom about growth hormones in beef have got precisely zero science backing them up, and more than a little contradicting their claims. You want to convince anyone else to share your feelings about beef, you’d best bring some facts to the table, because so far it looks like you just haven’t got any.
Well, to be precise, feeling cow entrails to cows isn’t how BSE started. BSE naturally occurs at very low rates, just like CJD occurs in humans at very low rates. Feeding cow entrails to cows is how BSE became a widespread problem in the UK. And yes, banning that practice has severely curtailed the prevalence of the disease. From a peak of 37k cases in the UK in 1992, the numbers are down to 343 for 2004. That’s a 99% decrease in cases. Expect those numbers to continue to drop as the numbers of cows born before the changes in feeding practices dwindle. Doesn’t seem like closing the barn door after the cow’s out to me.
As for your indigenous wildlife, the animal occupying the same ecological niche as the cow in North America is the bison, which wasn’t wiped out by ranchers, but by hunters after hides to sell for a quick buck. The near extinction of the bison was indeed a bad thing. However, bison numbers these days are rising dramatically thanks to those evil ranchers. In any event, grain farming (which I presume you support, since we have to eat something and the hunter/gatherer lifestyle won’t support even a tiny fraction of our population) wipes out native species via habitat destruction too. If you want to eat, you’re going to have to put up with ecosystems being messed with. There is absolutely no way around it.
Cows aren’t fed meat. They’re fed rendered animal protein. It’s more or less pre-digested in the manufacturing process. Do you really think anyone would waste money on feed that wasn’t meeting the nutritional requirements of cattle, or that cattle couldn’t digest? That would be entirely counterproductive.
Amazingly enough, some cows get sick, from a whole variety of ailments, in spite of the best efforts of ranchers. But actually, the most common cause of “unhealthy cows who couldn’t walk” is difficult calving. Happened twice in our herd while I was growing up, and we never had more than about 20 breeding stock. Never had any other downers. Calf is too big, and the cow’s pelvis gets fucked up giving birth, usually resulting in the death of the calf, too. People have the same problem, but it’s circumvented by performing c-sections - which are done on cows, too, but sometimes there isn’t a vet who can get to it in time, not to mention that performing c-sections in the not exactly sterile conditions of a barn has a bit higher complication rate than the procedure does when performed on people in hospitals.
Well, yes, that’s all very well. But you haven’t provided anything resembling a reason for hating the beef industry that you can back up with any facts. Let’s see what you’ve got. Ranchers use antibiotics to keep infectious diseases in their herds at bay, and feedlots used to use feed containing rendered cow entrails, but stopped when it became clear that this was spreading BSE in Europe. Oooooh! Evil! :rolleyes:
No thanks to the cattle ranchers. It’s been a long, difficult fight to get wolves back in and maintain them, and the Farm Bureau et al have opposed it every step of the way.
Tens of thousand of bison were killed between 1925 and 1986 to keep cattle from getting brucellosis. The population was down to 359 in 1968. If the bison were not interacting with the cattle, they wouldn’t have been killed, that seems apparent. Levels are back up above 3,000 now, with management options still being debated, it seems.
That’s exactly my point! I felt sorry for the workers who lost their jobs in Detroit, but I could not feel bad for an industry which, as a whole, was just into making its bottom line and not a high-quality product. Yes, it sucked very badly for the folks in Michigan, but what else could be done? So it seems that you and I agree on this, except that you don’t have a lot of sympathy for the line workers whose livelihoods were lost 'cause… that’s what happens when an industry folds. I feel badly for them as I feel badly for the ranchers, but it can’t be helped. Subsidized industries making a product that people think is unsafe soon go under; people lose jobs, but there’s nothing for it. Apply the same principle the the beef industry. That’s what I was saying in response to someone acccusing me of not caring about people who are suffering more than cows who are suffering. :rolleyes:
Well, you implied that there were no wolves in Yellowstone.
I misunderstood. I thought you meant the original population crash. So then, let’s see…
Your cite says:
9,000 bison, not all of which were killed, is hardly tens of thousands.
But that’s not the point of this thread - the point of this thread is that the Canadian industry was ravaged by the United States shutting their borders to Canadian beef and keeping them shut long after they should have been opened and doing pretty much everything in their power to help their own beef industry while damaging the Canadian beef industry. What happened in Detroit is apples and oranges to what happened in the Canadian beef industry.
For a country that claims to be friendly with Canada, there sure are some underhanded trade practices going on (see also: softwood lumber). There are even those who suggest that the borders being closed and kept closed to beef was a way of spanking Canada for not supporting the invasion of Iraq.
The Canadian beef industry, dear, was screwed once there were a few mad cows, with little regulation. Since then regulation and testing has improved greatly. It wasn’t ravaged by the US, it was, well it wasn’t even “ravaged”. It was hurt a bit by sloppy canadian feeding practices. They’ve been fixed, mostly.
The jury is still out on whether this one cow was another Canadian import or not. But sweetcheeks, I’ll agree with you that most of the western world has adopted rigorous testing, and all countries should open exports to other nations that abide by them.
And you stamping your hooves is the cutest thing! <smooch>
This is at least a little misleading. Prior to finding the first case in Alberta, Canadian and US regulation of the feeding of ruminants had been harmonized for several years - since 97ish, IIRC. Prior to that there had been some minor variations between the countries, but only minor. Furthermore, so many cattle flowed across the border in both directions that it makes no sense to talk about two seperate industries. There was only one.
So, it would be more accurate to say that BSE got into the North American beef herd by slopping North American feeding practices, that have been since rectified for the most part. What the Canadian industry is pissed off about is that the US industry has been pointing fingers at the Canadian industry for being irresponsible, when in fact the US industry was behaving in precisely the same fashion. As someone (I don’t recall who) remarked, the US beef industry criticizing the Canadian beef industry as it has is much like calling your twin ugly.
As to whether this latest case was an import, it’s largely irrelevant. The US industry was quick to blame Canada for their first case, but even though that cow was known to have been born in Alberta, it’s never to my knowledge been demonstrated that the cow contracted BSE in Alberta. It’s just been assumed.
Moreover, it’s never to my knowledge been demonstrated that any of the North American BSE cases have been the result of consumption of contaminated feed, rather than spontaneously arising cases. This point has been largely obscured in the media’s reporting on BSE. To read the news stories, you’d conclude that the cause of the disease is cows eating nervous tissue from other cows, when in fact this is merely the mode of transmission. The since-abandoned feeding practices didn’t create the disease any more than cannibalism in New Guinea created kuru. What happened in both situations was that the feeding practices blew a few cases into an epidemic. But while kuru has largely vanished, spontaneous CJD persists. Likewise, there is no reason to expect that BSE will vanish entirely with the last of the cows exposed to contaminated feed. Rather, we should expect that the BSE rate will return to whatever the underlying pre-epidemic rate was. Now, we didn’t know of the disease prior to the epidemic, so we don’t know what that rate was, but it was obviously greater than zero. The number of cases so far discovered in North America is perfectly consistent with there having been no cases spread by consumption of contaminated feed on this continent whatsoever, since it’s a rate of 5 out of some 110 million animals. Even if we figure that 20 cases have slipped through undetected for every one found, we still barely reach 1 case per million, which is the usual rate cited for spontaneous CJD in humans.
This is a slight hijack, but your comment in this paragraph reminded me of something.
My wife is terrified of BSE, and for years now we haven’t been eating any beef. (I’d rather not get into a discussion of whether this is rational or not; she’s got OCD and is afraid of a lot of things, and all that “I love her” crap means I’m not going to torture her by eat hamburgers and steaks if she can’t bring herself to do it.)
For a while now I’ve been thinking that, if the feeding of animal protein to cows is what caused widespread BSE, and that practice was ended here in North America as of 1997 (am I right about that being when it was ended?), then eventually all of the cows born and fed before the ban was instituted will be dead, and the danger will fall back to the normal one-in-a-million-cows background rate.
So, since it’s now halfway through 2005, are all the cows from before the ban dead? How long do beef cattle live before they’re turned into steaks? When will I be able to assure her that all the cannibalistic cows are dead and it’s safe to chow down on the ground beef again?
Does anybody know or have reliable estimates? Or even half-assed guesses?
Heck, most of this thread is a hijack. I hope featherlou isn’t making plans to have me roughed up or anything.
The natural lifespan of Bos taurus is in the vicinity of 20-25 years. However, it would be extremely rare for a cow to approach that age. Standard practice is to cull female breeding stock at around 10 years of age (or earlier if the cow performs poorly). Some may be kept around slightly longer, but they would be exceptions. I believe breeding bulls are typical slaughtered younger than that because they become too difficult to deal with as they age, but really good bulls that don’t turn nasty will be kept around as long as they’re reliably knocking up cows. I don’t know much about dairy operations, but I believe dairy cows are usually culled somewhat younger than 10 - in their case it’s based on milk output, not fertility. Figure 10-12 years for all but a tiny percentage of animals to be dead. 97 is when the feed ban went into place in both Canada and the US.
Note that I was talking about the numbers of BSE cases found in the UK. BSE never entered the feed supply to any appreciable extent in North America, if it did at all, so the relevance of 10-12 years from '97 is questionable at best. From what I can find online, in the UK, feeding ruminant protein to ruminants was banned in 1988. As can be seen on this chart, reported BSE cases peaked in 93 at 37k, and by 2000 (12 years after the ban) had dropped off to 1400. The cases that continue to be found can be attributed to any number of possible causes - a few will just be really old cows, some will be animals fed with feed purchased before the ban but used after, some may have been given feed meant for hogs or poultry which could still contain ruminant protein. There may have been some cross-contamination between ruminant feed and non-ruminant feed coming from the same plants, or used on farms raising both types of livestock. There may be some transmission methods we don’t understand. All these would be factors in North America as well, except that since any presence of BSE in livestock feed was at extremely low levels (as is evidenced by the very small number of BSE cases found in a rather large pool of tested samples) cross-contamination and the like carry vastly lower risks than they would have in the UK where the prevalence of BSE in the feed supply was obviously very high.
I won’t presume to tell someone with OCD how to deal with her compulsive worries, but my suggestion, if you’d like to bite into a juicy steak, would be to find a local producer and puchase the beef directly. In this way you can guarantee that the beef comes from a young animal. (Though steaks would almost certainly come from young animals anyways. Old cows are generally ground up, as steaks and the like from old cows are very tough.) Alternatively, find a source of bison. Lower in fat, tastier, and usually grass-fattened. Needs to be cooked differently than beef, though, as the lower fat content makes it easy to dry out.
Welllll…
Nah, I had my say. You want to keep coming up with information so I don’t have to actually go and look it up or anything, fine by me.
And I second bison. It is yummy and lean.
D’you suppose Rubystreak has realized that if all the cattle in North America dropped dead tomorrow, the industry would simply turn to bison?
Thanks for the extensive information, Gorsnak. It is greatly appreciated, and quite interesting.
I’ve told her that, as far as I understand it, it’s only ground beef that would be a potential risk, not steaks and other solid slabs of muscle (with the possible exception of t-bone steaks, which you should check for any scraps of spinal tissue), as they shouldn’t have any prion contamination. (I don’t remember where I heard that, but I believe it was the web site of a rancher who went into great detail about BSE.) But she’s still afraid of any kind of beef. With that in mind, great suggestion about the bison – I don’t know where we’d find any, but it would be a nice change of pace from turkey and chicken and the like. I presume it tastes more like beef than poultry does?
Bison is almost indistinguishable from beef if you don’t know you’re eating bison. So, um, I guess make sure you tell your wife. 